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Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

By the way the whole joke started having nothing to do with his heritage, it had more to do with people describing his dedication as "religious". I thought it was funny that people would put that kind of effort just in the plight of getting girls, hence the none-virgins part of the joke. 

I get it, and I don't believe you were trying to perpetuate stereotypes. I'm just saying the coincidence makes me uncomfortable. Thank you for voicing your skepticism and making everyone better aware of ways results could be falsified, but maybe acknowledge the uncertainty when you say something is a cosmetic procedure or photoshop, especially when it impugns the honesty of another forum member.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2019 3:49 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

Oh, now I get what you are hanging on to. I think the pics in the original GIF I posted are not accurately superimposed. They are presenting the changes as being much greater than they really are.

No, because I did my own analysis and superimposed the pictures. It just serves as a reminder to you to check the gif you posted to realize how much forward growth there is. And I am not saying it's a perfect example either, it's a just an example you posted that shows so much forward growth. Good for you to realize what I am alluding to.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2019 3:55 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Progress

Oh, now I get what you are hanging on to. I think the pics in the original GIF I posted are not accurately superimposed. They are presenting the changes as being much greater than they really are.

No, because I did my own analysis and superimposed the pictures. It just serves as a reminder to you to check the gif you posted to realize how much forward growth there is. And I am not saying it's a perfect example either, it's a just an example you posted that shows so much forward growth. Good for you to realize what I am alluding to.

I believe you. Still, the point remains: the pics you are using to invalidate his growth are so awkwardly different that I can't really find any explanation to how you justify to yourself using them as the basis for your point. Surely you see how much the head is rotating between the pics, as hinted by the amount of change in the visibility of the posterior cranium:

 

Then regarding the latter comparison you created, isn't this pretty much in line with the changes Ronald Ead experienced from FAGGA, in that the two lower thirds grew forward and slightly downward?

This post was modified 2 months ago 3 times by Progress
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Posted : 12/06/2019 4:04 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

I believe you. Still, the point remains: the pics you are using to invalidate his growth are so awkwardly different that I can't really find any explanation to how you justify to yourself using them as the basis for your point. Surely you see how much the head is rotating between the pics, as hinted by the amount of change in the visibility of the posterior cranium:

 

Yes I already acknowledge this in my original post about this specific comparison. That's why I never made a gif of those two pictures.

Lining up the pictures does not give a good direct comparison, but did you notice how closely it matches his "before" picture. The face angle is almost the same and the forward growth is exactly the same but of course the neck, lower jaw, chin, and nose changed.

There is no way his before and video pictures will match like that with all that massive forward expansion he is presenting in his after picture.

Then regarding the latter comparison you created, isn't this pretty much in line with the changes Ronald Ead experienced from FAGGA, in that the two lower thirds grew forward and slightly downward?

 

Ronald's changes are specific to his alveolar ridge, and much of it is tipping. His skeletal maxilla didn't change. This guy's entire face, maxilla, forehead, everything just zoomed out. 

I mentioned earlier that I didn't know what was going on until I started matching the video to his after pictures, but I knew something was not right and the chin was the first clue.

Going through so many, fagga, surgery, Orthotropics cases with children nothing was like this.

This post was modified 2 months ago 4 times by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2019 4:13 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

No, look at Ronald Ead's mid-face and nose in particular here (I know, the head tilts aren't quite identical here either):

Note also how his chin grew too. How much larger could it have become, had his teeth not been tipped forward? Anyway, now take another look at your gif. I colorcorrected it a bit so that the change in the nasal area is better seen:

There are similarities in how both of their mid-faces experienced a downward movement. I'm not sure if it's even appropriate to call this change forward expansion per se. It seems more like re-structuring of some kind. Or de-compression. I don't know, it's fascinating how simultaneously complex yet subtle it all seems (given that we are fine with assuming that the photos are reasonably identical).

This post was modified 2 months ago 3 times by Progress
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Posted : 12/06/2019 4:35 pm
James
Eminent Member

A key principle in Bayesian reasoning is that the likelihood of an occurrence depends not only on the strength of the evidence for it, but on the initial probability prior to seeing the evidence (aka prior probability). In other words, the more extraordinary a claim is, the more extraordinary the evidence you need. In this case, this is an extraordinary amount and pattern of growth being claimed, so the evidence should be extraordinary.

To figure out how extraordinary these claims are, let's think about what the "prior probability" would be. What amount/pattern of growth would you have considered likely before viewing this thread? What would have initially predicted as a good example of Mewing results, and would it have looked anything like this case? 

I believe that if we had asked this forum what was possible from adult Mewing, the estimates would have been much more modest than this, which is far beyond other Mewing results, and even beyond results we have seen from appliances. (Jamo's case is the only one that is remotely close, but that case is so badly documented that I prefer to suspend judgment on it.) If we had asked people here which landmarks would be most likely to change from adult Mewing, they would probably talk about the maxilla, hyoid position, masseters, cheekbones, the mandible position, and the gonial angle, ramus and condyle (for instance, AstroSky's results). I don't think anyone would have thought of Mewing as causing large growth to the very tip of the chin like in the case under discussion; that's just not a landmark that people have historically associated with Mewing results.

What is more likely: that we are seeing a case of adult Mewing with an amount and locations of growth that is highly unusual, using a technique different from Mike Mew's and overshooting any appliance... or that there is some element other than Mewing behind these results? The more this case overshoots your estimates of what Mewing could accomplish, or diverges from the growth pattern that you would have predicted from Mewing, then the more skepticism you should hold.

Now that we have discussed the prior probability of this case (extraordinary), we will next discuss whether there are any reasons to disbelieve the evidence provided: what could produce these results other than the claimed protocol. Fillers is one possibility, or even a chin implant. Here is an example of chin fillers that is less drastic than the chin changes in the original case, which are claimed to be from Mewing:

(Source.)

Can anyone look at chin filler results and say that they don't see a resemblance to the claimed results in this case?

What are the chances of someone having fillers for aesthetics and then claiming that it is Mewing? I don't know, but what I do know is that anyone who has been on lookism forums does have knowledge of fillers. Remember, in the lookism world, they are constantly discussing surgical and cosmetic procedures. This makes it less unlikely for a guy to get fillers for aesthetic reasons.

Another concern raised by @abdulrahman is that there may be Photoshopping involved in the after stills. We can't say for certain whether there is, because we don't have comparisons from exactly the same angle. But something important to know is that Photoshopping "morphs" are very popular on lookism forums, to visualize guys with better facial development. A serious user of these forums would have the capability of making more forward-grown Photoshop morphs.

Here is an example of a lookism Photoshop morph, and anyone who could create this morph could create a more subtle and believable version.

Can we say conclusively that the results claimed in this thread are fake? That is not what I am trying to say, and I have given Mewing credit for some changes, like improving the hyoid area. But this pattern of results is extraordinary and unusual relative to our expectations of adult Mewing. Certain changes here are more consistent with fillers than with Mewing. While we can't prove that deception is present, the ability to deceive would exist, due to support from certain other forums. Even the people here who are inclined to believe that the results are all from Mewing should admit that these are not the results they would have predicted and that there is room for doubt and for alternative explanations other than what is claimed.

This post was modified 2 months ago by James
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Posted : 12/06/2019 5:26 pm
James
Eminent Member
Posted by: Progress

No, look at Ronald Ead's mid-face and nose in particular here (I know, the head tilts aren't quite identical here either):

Note also how his chin grew too. How much larger could it have become, had his teeth not been tipped forward? Anyway, now take another look at your gif. I colorcorrected it a bit so that the change in the nasal area is better seen:

There are similarities in how both of their mid-faces experienced a downward movement. I'm not sure if it's even appropriate to call this change forward expansion per se. It seems more like re-structuring of some kind. Or de-compression. I don't know, it's fascinating how simultaneously complex yet subtle it all seems (given that we are fine with assuming that the photos are reasonably identical).

Here's what I am seeing: Ronald show big changes to lip support and nasolabial angle. But the case in this thread does not show those changes. Instead, the changes are the chin massively projecting out, the body of the mandible looking longer, and the hyoid rising up. The hyoid rising up is plausibly the result of Mewing, but the other changes are strange. So far, Mewing has not been considered a method of growing the bony prominence of the chin. The chin projection cannot be caused by the mandible moving forward, because the lower lip hasn't changed. Also, in adults the kind of changes to the mandible we would expect would be remodeling to the condyle, ramus, and gonial angle, not changes to the body of the mandible.

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Posted : 12/06/2019 5:37 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@james thanks for joining in

Can anyone look at chin filler results and say that they don't see a resemblance to the claimed results in this case?

Consider that the premise is that mewing results in anatomically correct, proportional growth. Due to this, you may be putting the cart before the horse: it's not that his results resemble filler, but it's the fillers that are intended to resemble proper growth. The isolated features (such as the chin) of whoever achieves proper growth should thus appear indistinguishable from good filler work.

 

Here's what I am seeing: Ronald show big changes to lip support and nasolabial angle. But the case in this thread does not show those changes. [...] 

It's good to note that, although I highlighted the similarities in the changes of both faces, FAGGA is a hugely different procedure than mewing. As Abdul said, FAGGA moves the teeth forward. Mewing does not necessarily do this. In my case, something akin to the opposite has happened. Instead of the face moving forward, it's the cranial base that has been expanding backward. Due to this, the facial features have more room to sit in the splanchocranium, resulting in aesthetically pleasing reduction of protrusion.

The chin projection cannot be caused by the mandible moving forward, because the lower lip hasn't changed.

To me it looks like his lower lip has changed though, this set makes the change more apparent:

Also, in adults the kind of changes to the mandible we would expect would be remodeling to the condyle, ramus, and gonial angle, not changes to the body of the mandible.

What is this expectation based on? Mandible, in the end, is one bone. Is it logical to assume that as such it would only be subject to remodelling in specific locations of the bone? If gonial angle can change significantly, why not the chin? Could  the gonial angle even change without affecting the chin? In addition, a change of this caliber would likely redistribute the occlusional forces too, possibly increasing the masticatory load on the chin. The lower incisors could also tip inward due to the maxillary rotation, allowing the chin to project more. I recall helmut also saying that his chin has a soft padding now, hinting towards possible mentalis hypertrophy (inb4 "or a filler").

 

What amount/pattern of growth would you have considered likely before viewing this thread? What would have initially predicted as a good example of Mewing results, and would it have looked anything like this case? 

As pretentious as it feels to say this, his changes are in line with what I have been expecting since the days of claimingpower. I never understood when some say that mewing can only bring small changes. Well if it can create small changes, then what exactly is stopping it from creating large changes?  It would be more believable to assert that mewing can't bring any changes at all, than to claim that there is some magical point between you and harmonious cranial structure that can't be passed. I honestly fully believe that close to optimal growth is achievable by almost anyone even at an adult age. If I get proven wrong, feel free to laugh at me, for I have deserved it.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Progress
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Posted : 12/06/2019 6:19 pm
Arkey liked
James
Eminent Member

@progress OK, I see that someone who is a big believer in adult Mewing could be expecting a case with results as large as this to eventually show up. That's not quite what I was intending with my question, though, so allow me to rephrase. My question is less about the maximum changes that might hopefully be possible, and more a question about what are the typical changes that we would predict from adult Mewing, based on the results that we have seen so far. And what parts of the face would be changing the most. I think that the answer to this question would describe growth much more modest than what we are seeing in the claimed case.

Another related question would be, what do you think are the chances of someone replicating these results by following the same protocol?

As for expectations of growth, the default assumption—which needs to be challenged—is that facial bones can't grow in adults. We know that this isn't true, and we have seen bone remodeling in cases of appliances, but the sites at which remodeling occur seem to be limited. Remodeling of the dentoalveolar area, condyle, and ramus is claimed in cases of appliances. Mew has made claims of people improving cheekbones as adults. I have never seen claims of dramatically growing the chin point or the body of the mandible with appliances or adult Mewing prior to this. So I think the burden should be on showing that such changes are possible, not on showing that it is impossible.

Also, don't forget that most people with growth appliances are also Mewing. How is someone who is only Mewing getting larger results than someone who is Mewing with an appliance giving them more space to Mew? Why have people Mewing with appliances not been able to get changes of this magnitude, especially to unlikely areas like the chin? Is everyone just doing Mewing completely wrong except for the person discussed in this case, which explains their inferior results, including the hard-Mewers? Or is something else going on here?

In the case of the chin, Mew says that mentalis growth will hide the bony point of the chin, so hard tissue is the only explanation of the bony chin prominence. Mewing also does not activate the mentalis, and in fact, Mew sees mentalis activation as parafunctional behavior to be eliminated.

To fully believe in the results in this thread, we have to believe that adult Mewing can now do stuff that has not claimed/documented before, and beyond the achievements of other people, even with appliance. We also have to go beyond Mew's own claims, which are only about soft-Mewing (aka Mewing). For another example of contrast, compare the changes in this case with the changes you are claiming in your case about expansion of the cranial base backward, which is different from this case where the chin is growing forward. Why would adult Mewing be accomplishing something totally different in your case from his?

I'm not saying that it's impossible for Mewing to have different results in different people, but the scientific problem is that the more propositions we have to accept, the more large and varied the results attributed to adult Mewing are, then the harder to believe it is, when in the absence of hard documentation. Either this is an unprecedented, earth-shattering result that will change what is considered possible with Mewing—or there is more here than meets the eye. We may not be able to resolve the debate over this, but what we can all do is stay on the lookout for whether there are replications of this magnitude of results (ideally with less debatable documentation). Because if it works, then there should be.

This post was modified 2 months ago by James
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Posted : 12/06/2019 8:56 pm
devicem liked
skinnyboiii
Active Member

@James you make a lot of good points. About evaluating priors it's hard because we don't have any appliances which imitate what the tongue does, nor do we know of anyone who has put in the kind of heroic effort that @helmutstrebl has. He's kind of a unique case.

> How is someone who is only Mewing getting larger results than someone who is Mewing with an appliance giving them more space to Mew? 

If we take him at his word, he's not only mewing, he's chin tucking at max for 4-5 hours a day.

> In the case of the chin, Mew says that mentalis growth will hide the bony point of the chin, so hard tissue is the only explanation of the bony chin prominence.

I don't think this follows, as none of us has touched @helmustrebl's chin to know if it's bony or not.

> For another example of contrast, compare the changes in this case with the changes you are claiming in your case about expansion of the cranial base backward, which is different from this case where the chin is growing forward. Why would adult Mewing be accomplishing something totally different in your case from his?

To answer on behalf of @Progress, these aren't exclusive from each other. Both could be happening in both cases, albeit to different degrees. We don't know about @helmutstrebl's cranial base (do we?) and signs point to (possibly) a growth in @Progress's chin.

> I'm not saying that it's impossible for Mewing to have different results in different people, but the scientific problem is that the more propositions we have to accept, the more large and varied the results attributed to adult Mewing are, then the harder to believe it is, when in the absence of hard documentation.

I agree with the feelings behind this post. But given how many ways there are for the teeth, jaw, face, and cranium to go wrong, it's not surprising that due to variance in technique and starting conditions you get variance in the results. I don't think extra assumptions are required, nor am I sure which extra assumptions you're referring to.

I posted what I consider to be a comparably dramatic change here: https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/another-interesting-case-from-reddit-2-years/ but it hardly got any attention. His entire skull changed shape and over a similar time period (2 years at ages 25-27). I'm not sure why this didn't make a splash like the case under discussion here, nor does anyone seem to be disputing those results.

This post was modified 2 months ago by skinnyboiii
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Posted : 12/06/2019 10:24 pm
James
Eminent Member

@skinnyboiii, I want to specifically address the subject of the chin. This post by Abdulrahman shows that the point of the chin has grown relative to the lips. There are only a few possibilities of what could cause this: bone growth, muscle growth, or fillers. It can't be muscle, because that would be the mentalis muscle, which Mew says will hide a pointy chin (link in my previous post).

For that other case you link to, the changes look a lot more natural. In fact, I think in the before picture, he was straining his mentalis causing his chin to be flat, and in the after picture, the mentalis has relaxed (which Mew says can reveal the point of the chin). It's also possible that his mandible has rotated around forward, whereas forward rotation of the mandible comes nowhere near explaining the cartoonish chin changes in this thread.

Also, remember that I have said that there could possibly be changes in his face from Mewing; what I am disputing is whether Mewing can explain all of the changes.

This is indeed a unique case. But the more unique it is, the less likely it is, and the less willing we should be to take it on someone's word without scans, molds, or photos from the same lighting/angle.

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Posted : 12/06/2019 11:09 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

My question is less about the maximum changes that might hopefully be possible, and more a question about what are the typical changes that we would predict from adult Mewing, based on the results that we have seen so far. And what parts of the face would be changing the most.

This is kind of an inconvenient question, not unlike asking what are the typical results of working out and what parts of the musculature would be changing the most. The short answer would be: it depends. There are likely several ways in which the cranium can lose it's optimal structure. After all, there are over 20 bones in your head, most of them either directly or indirectly dependent on the support of the oral & cervical musculature.

In general, the splanchocranial base, in which the facial features sit, should open up in a manner that allows every feature to assume its proper position in the face. In this way, the tongue is almost like a drill that carves itself ever deeper into the foundations of the face. This may translate to more dominant brow, enlargened eyesockets and consequent deepened eyes, reduction of dorsal hump and nasal prominence, hollow cheeks and horizontalization of the occlusion and the consequent mandibular changes, to name a few.

How is someone who is only Mewing getting larger results than someone who is Mewing with an appliance giving them more space to Mew? Why have people Mewing with appliances not been able to get changes of this magnitude, especially to unlikely areas like the chin? Is everyone just doing Mewing completely wrong except for the person discussed in this case, which explains their inferior results, including the hard-Mewers? Or is something else going on here?

Those are good questions and I find myself asking them too. At the moment, I think that several things need to come together in order for one to achieve results. Certainly, getting anywhere with mewing is not as simple as just slapping the tongue on the palate and going on with your day. You would need to figure out how the tongue interacts with your jaw, neck and cranial base, and after that, how to generate sufficient anatomical tensegrity between these locations. It's not just that you have to mew hard or correctly, you have to do both at the same time. When the underlying skeletal structure is not already supportive to proper functioning of the musculature, learning to correctly implement the mechanics involved in mewing can be a task more difficult than many realize. You can spend months thinking you 'got it', only to later realize how lackluster your technique actually was. This has been my experience for the last 3 years. You have to constantly re-learn and strive to an even higher level of functioning. Most mornings you start up slightly behind where you were the previous night. If you spend a few days slacking, the hole you will have to climb out of tends to deepen as your former postural habits begin to kick back in.

So we must ask: of all who are mewing, how many are really doing all of this to the required extent? Both jamo and helmut have been almost obsessive about their own journeys. I am not far from that myself either. Even among the active posters on this forum, the ones who are doing everything they can to understand and improve their bodies are a tiny minority.

 

For another example of contrast, compare the changes in this case with the changes you are claiming in your case about expansion of the cranial base backward, which is different from this case where the chin is growing forward. Why would adult Mewing be accomplishing something totally different in your case from his?

No I think the same thing is happening to him too. As we can see in the pics, oral posture drives the cervical spine and the splanchocranium away from each other which, the way I see it, unwinds the posterior maxilla by pulling it down to a more horizontal angle. The lowering maxillary molars will then urge the mandible down and forward, but in order to move so, the anterior part of the manbibular alveoral has to adapt, lest it be blocked by the maxillary incisors. This would mean that the mandible itself shifts forward more than the mandibular teeth, leading to the increased chin prominence. This mechanism might also have a secondary purpose of squeezing the mandibular wisdom teeth out of the gums (and molars&pre-molars earlier in life), but that may be a bit out there. All I know is that the mechanisms of teething aren't fully understood, and that this kind of mechanic explanation would be such an alluring Occam's razor.

 

I'm not saying that it's impossible for Mewing to have different results in different people, but the scientific problem is that the more propositions we have to accept, the more large and varied the results attributed to adult Mewing are, then the harder to believe it is, when in the absence of hard documentation. Either this is an unprecedented, earth-shattering result that will change what is considered possible with Mewing—or there is more here than meets the eye. We may not be able to resolve the debate over this, but what we can all do is stay on the lookout for whether there are replications of this magnitude of results (ideally with less debatable documentation). Because if it works, then there should be.

Yes, time will hopefully provide the much needed answer here.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Progress
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Posted : 12/06/2019 11:21 pm
Odys
 Odys
Eminent Member

It would be interesting to see photos of him in action rather than displaying results. Extreme chin tucking and hard mewing both sound as if they involve a large amount of muscular effort and who knows what muscles are recruited to that effort. One way to make the chin protrude would be to move the lower dental arch back. This might happen at the base of the teeth even if they are also tipping out. I pay heed to Frankel.

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Posted : 13/06/2019 11:09 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@Progress

"As pretentious as it feels to say this, his changes are in line with what I have been expecting since the days of claimingpower. I never understood when some say that mewing can only bring small changes. Well if it can create small changes, then what exactly is stopping it from creating large changes?  It would be more believable to assert that mewing can't bring any changes at all, than to claim that there is some magical point between you and harmonious cranial structure that can't be passed. I honestly fully believe that close to optimal growth is achievable by almost anyone even at an adult age. If I get proven wrong, feel free to laugh at me, for I have deserved it."

How can you say that when mewing did almost nothing for you in, what (?) 3 years?

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Posted : 14/06/2019 12:58 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

No, look at Ronald Ead's mid-face and nose in particular here (I know, the head tilts aren't quite identical here either):

 

Note also how his chin grew too. How much larger could it have become, had his teeth not been tipped forward? Anyway, now take another look at your gif. I colorcorrected it a bit so that the change in the nasal area is better seen:

 

There are similarities in how both of their mid-faces experienced a downward movement. I'm not sure if it's even appropriate to call this change forward expansion per se. It seems more like re-structuring of some kind. Or de-compression. I don't know, it's fascinating how simultaneously complex yet subtle it all seems (given that we are fine with assuming that the photos are reasonably identical).

Those are opposing examples. Ronald's Pg point (the most prominent point on his chin) didn't move forward one bit relative to the lower lip.

The lower lip moved forward, and more importantly the upper lip moved forward to allow the lower jaw to move forward. As I explained in my previous post none of that happened in this guy's case. His chin just poked out relative to other landmarks exactly as happens with fillers, genoplasty, and implants procedures. 

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/great-results-found-on-reddit/paged/2/#post-21389

This post was modified 2 months ago 3 times by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 14/06/2019 1:17 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: skinnyboiii

I posted what I consider to be a comparably dramatic change here: https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/another-interesting-case-from-reddit-2-years/ but it hardly got any attention. His entire skull changed shape and over a similar time period (2 years at ages 25-27). I'm not sure why this didn't make a splash like the case under discussion here, nor does anyone seem to be disputing those results.

If you look at the reddit thread I was positive towards this case and provided a full analysis with gif line up of the pictures. Let me venture a guess that this case didn't get much attention even though it seems legitimate because that guy didn't end up looking "HOT".

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 14/06/2019 1:22 am
skinnyboiii
Active Member

Heh, perhaps. It's noteworthy that in this case the chin came forward as well (although, not as much as @helmutstrebl's). This is something you apparently noticed.

This post was modified 2 months ago by skinnyboiii
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Posted : 14/06/2019 4:44 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Progress

No, look at Ronald Ead's mid-face and nose in particular here (I know, the head tilts aren't quite identical here either):

 

Note also how his chin grew too. How much larger could it have become, had his teeth not been tipped forward? Anyway, now take another look at your gif. I colorcorrected it a bit so that the change in the nasal area is better seen:

 

There are similarities in how both of their mid-faces experienced a downward movement. I'm not sure if it's even appropriate to call this change forward expansion per se. It seems more like re-structuring of some kind. Or de-compression. I don't know, it's fascinating how simultaneously complex yet subtle it all seems (given that we are fine with assuming that the photos are reasonably identical).

Those are opposing examples. Ronald's Pg point (the most prominent point on his chin) didn't move forward one bit relative to the lower lip.

The lower lip moved forward, and more importantly the upper lip moved forward to allow the lower jaw to move forward. As I explained in my previous post none of that happened in this guy's case. His chin just poked out relative to other landmarks exactly as happens with fillers, genoplasty, and implants procedures. 

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/great-results-found-on-reddit/paged/2/#post-21389

I think you are wrong. Here is a comparison of Pg-Li line for both Ead and Helmut. In terms of the dynamics of this line alone, the changes are somewhat similar. As far as other mandibular markesrs go, B-point stays the same and Gn&Me undergo a shift in both:

 

Besides, you completely ignored my main point, which was the skeletal changes in Ead's middle-face.

 

@bundfalke How can you say that when mewing did almost nothing for you in, what (?) 3 years?

If 9mm of palatal expansion, visible reduction of maxillary protrusion and improved shape of the neurocranium is "almost nothing" to you, there is not much I can enlighten you with. I am not trying to be a posterboy for mewing, nor a walking proof. I simply have a strong confidence in what is physically possible, and I'm dedicated to getting there. 

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Posted : 14/06/2019 8:24 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@Progress

"If 9mm of palatal expansion, visible reduction of maxillary protrusion and improved shape of the neurocranium is "almost nothing" to you, there is not much I can enlighten you with. I am not trying to be a posterboy for mewing, nor a walking proof. I simply have a strong confidence in what is physically possible, and I'm dedicated to getting there. "

Lets imagine you undergo a hair transplant surgery because you are bald. When you are finished, you find that you are still bald, but your nose isnt crooked and big anymore. In that sense, the surgery did nothing for you.
Obviously thats completely exagerated but you get my point. I dont know if the sole purpose of your "mewing journey" was to widen your palate. But most people mew to achieve what helmut appereantly achieved. Forward growth. A better, sharper jawline. A more prominent chin. Bigger cheekbones and all that stuff. To look better. I see nothing of that happening to you.
If im being being honest, i was just very discouraged when i saw your progression thread. Because i really believe that you mewed this entire time, and mewed correctly. And I just dont see any change. You say "9mm of palatal expansion, visible reduction of maxillary protrusion and improved shape of the neurocranium" but all these things seem to be miniscule because they dont seem to have any significant effect on facial appereance. And give the time put into mewing, i would say they are indeed "nothing". 4 years is such a long time, exspecially when you are young. Maybe that doesnt matter to you because you look like a normal guy, but there are people out there with CFD much much worse than yours
 
Im just saying, almost everyone who comes into these forums and almost everyone who starts mewing are doing it to look better. I dont think anyone expects (or even wants) to end up looking like a model. But most people atleast hope to start looking "normal". Or atleast have ANY significant change in appereance. So they can stop worrying about their face and just be content with how they look.
Maybe thats Mike Mews fault. He started talking about models, sharp jawlines and beauty with his hole mewing concept. He talks about mewing, answers questions, provides proof in children. But he never really explained to the world just how impossible it might be for adults.
As i said a few times, this one 20 year old woman from john mews website is the only adult i have ever seen where i can say she truly did have significant change in her facial appereance from "mewing". She was 20 years old. Who knows, maybe 20-21 years is the last time you can achieve anything with mewing.
I remember when i was 20-21 and i mewed for a few days, i had severe, brace-like pain in all of my molars and a change in how my front teeth touch each other, after just a single day of hard mewing. Now that im mewing correctly and for months now, i dont have that pain anymore as a fresh 24 year old.
 
I also dont know why my text is messed up like that.
This post was modified 2 months ago 6 times by bundfalke
ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 10:07 am
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@bundfalke Your expectations are unrealistic.  Your surgery analogy is completely off base because it assumes the surgery has been completed.  The reality is that Progress is at the very beginning, where the first few hairs have just been transplanted (or however hair loss surgery works, I'm not an expert).  

Transformation is a process that will take a decade, if not decades, for most.  If you're hoping to become a model in 2-3 years, you're in for some disappointment.

I don't know how anyone could look at Progress' pics and say he has achieved "almost nothing."  The beginning stages of change are undeniable.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 10:47 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: bundfalke

@Progress

 Because i really believe that you mewed this entire time, and mewed correctly.

I understand your frustration if this is your premise. Let me tell you: I am not sure if I'm mewing correctly even now. People don't seem to comprehend how difficult proper oral posture really is in the larger postural context. Most of the work I have been doing in the last three years has been ab0ut establishing the anatomical groundwork for efficient mewing, and about understanding the fundamental principles behind it. I  half-deliberately took the long road: I have been experimenting with various ways of holding my tongue, head and jaw, some of which have either stalled my progress or even set me back, others which have brought fast improvements, and used all of these to deepen my understanding of the cranial dynamics.

I want to emphasize that I started from a difficult position. I had never had proper posture. Consider that all the postural deficiencies, asymmetries and imbalances have to be addressed simultaneously before you can begin to achieve significant improvements through endogenous means. The body generally likes to function as a singular unit, thus you can only get as far as your weakest link lets you (or risk injuring yourself). When the whole body consists of nothing but weak links, the work is going to have to be slow and meticulous.

Someone who is fixing an adulthood relapse of previously good posture and structure will fare much better. We know that physiologically structural changes can take place in a matter of weeks to months. If I knew everything I know now, I suspect I could achieve the same results in about 6 months. As I have said before, it's not that achieving cranial changes is slow in itself, but rather the real obstacle is getting to a point where triggering such changes becomes feasible.

I understand that this may all come off as a massive excuse, but it'd be a real shame if you let my case to discourage you from improving your own life. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Progress
ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 11:04 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@drunkwithcoffee

I stated that most people dont expect or even want to look like a model, including myself. People want to look normal, that is all.  CFD is not normal. Its a deformity of the most significant part of your face. And they dont want to look normal in 30 years years. They want to look normal as soon as possible, so they can stop worrying about their faces.

Well i do. I look at Progress pictures and i see almost nothing. And if i do see anything, its nothing that cant be attributed to his beard or the lighting.

I dont know how old you are and what attitude you have towards life. People want to make the best out of every day they have. No one wants to spend years and decades hating his own face because "oh well in 30 years my chin will be 2cm more forward than now". 

My expectations are unrealistic, but they are very very reasonable from a human point of view, because years and exspecially a decade make up a very large part of a humans life. And believe it or not, but humans are very shallow which is why even good looking people are ready to spend a large sum of money, time and effort on their appereance. If you ever made the transformation from unattractive to attractive you would know just how much of a big impact appereance makes on your life. And its depressing to be aware just how much better and happier your life could be.

Its hard for me to explain but i hope you understand what im trying to say. You have to look at this whole subject from a relative viewpoint. This subject is a superficial one. And we are not forest rangers who worry about not having any trees to cut down in 500 years.

Again, i hope you understand what im trying to say.

@Progress

"I understand that this may all come off as a massive excuse, but it'd be a real shame if you let my case to discourage you from improving your own life. "

No. Correct oral and neck/body posture is a good thing not matter what. Its how its supposed to be which is why im going to keep doing it for the rest of my life.

This post was modified 2 months ago 3 times by bundfalke
ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 11:20 am
krollic
Estimable Member

@bundfalke

what was causing the pain. clenching?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 11:26 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: krollic

@bundfalke

what was causing the pain. clenching?

Did you ever had braces? Braces give you a special kind of pain/discomfort in your teeth.

I think it was in Winter 2015 (20 years old) where i was trying out mewing. I remember i was sitting infront of my computer reading a PDF book about C++. I was tongue chewing the entire day really. Rolling and moving my tongue against my palate the entire time. And suddenly i got this insane "brace-like" pain in all of my molars. I was very impressed and surprised.

Then a few days later, i noticed that my front teeth dont touch each other same way they used to do. I dont know about you, but i just know where and how my front teeth touch each other. So if theres any change in that and for example, one upper and lower front tooh start touching each other (or lose their touch) even though they didnt before, you are going to notice that immediately.

And no i was never clenching my teeth.

Well thats what happened. Strong "brace-like" pain in all of my molars in just the first few days. I stopped mewing shortly after for no reason really.

Then, in summer 2017 (22 years old) when i was doing a apprenticeship, i was sitting in class and for no special reason started hard mewing/intense tongue chewing and after a hour, i got intense "brace-like" pain in all of my molars again. It felt like i just visited my orthodontist who tensed up the wire on my braces and resulted in teeth pain. It was the same kind of pain.

Fast-forward 2 years later (24 years old) , i started doing mewing again (3 months ago now) and im getting no pain or sensation at all, even though i stuck to it for a lot longer than in previous time.

I started taking Mk677 (growth hormone and igf-1) at the beginning of the year for reasons which have nothing to do with my face or appereance.  IGF-1 and GH are known to increase bone density, so maybe thats why im getting no pain now. Maybe my maxilla is too "stiff" or "hard" now. At the same time IGF-1 and GH increase bone turn-over rate/bone remodelling.

 

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by bundfalke
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Posted : 14/06/2019 11:41 am
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@bundfalke I understand where you're coming from.  I also want to look normal, it's a completely reasonable desire.  But changing your facial structure is a huge thing to ask from the universe, and you can't expect everyone to be able to achieve that in 2-3 years.  If you're not willing to put in the work on a 10 year timeline, what makes you think you will be ever be able to achieve it?  Maybe things change for you much faster, but it's the mentality that matters.

Every orthotropic doctor has emphasized that IMW expansion comes first, then maxilla and mandible movement (if at all).  If you can't see Progress is clearly laying down the foundation for future improvement, then I don't know what will convince you.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 12:04 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

I think you are wrong. Here is a comparison of Pg-Li line for both Ead and Helmut. In terms of the dynamics of this line alone, the changes are somewhat similar. As far as other mandibular markesrs go, B-point stays the same and Gn&Me undergo a shift in both:

This gif is wrong. You are drawing a line on differently tilted faces. This will give inconsistent results. Match the tilt of both faces and draw a line from a fixed point like the nasion. Or use angles on specific soft tissue points to show a relationship. If I knew which pictures you used in that gif for Ead I would have done it.

Besides, you completely ignored my main point, which was the skeletal changes in Ead's middle-face.

I didn't, I told you Ead's changes are in the alveolar ridge. His teeth moved forward giving more space to jut his lower jaw forward. It' similar to le fort 1 surgery in that you see it only changing the lower part of the upper jaw.

 

If 9mm of palatal expansion, visible reduction of maxillary protrusion and improved shape of the neurocranium is "almost nothing" to you, there is not much I can enlighten you with. I am not trying to be a posterboy for mewing, nor a walking proof. I simply have a strong confidence in what is physically possible, and I'm dedicated to getting there. 

Sorry, the expansion you show in your pictures is not 9mm, it's much less. I have my doubts about those the other claims.   

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 12:10 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Progress

I think you are wrong. Here is a comparison of Pg-Li line for both Ead and Helmut. In terms of the dynamics of this line alone, the changes are somewhat similar. As far as other mandibular markesrs go, B-point stays the same and Gn&Me undergo a shift in both:

This gif is wrong. You are drawing a line on differently tilted faces. This will give inconsistent results. Match the tilt of both faces and draw a line from a fixed point like the nasion. Or use angles on specific soft tissue points to show a relationship. If I knew which pictures you used in that gif for Ead I would have done it

Your claim was that there was no movement of chin in relation to lower lip. This relationship is measured by the Li-Pg line, agree? Now Li-Pg relationship stays the same regardless of the facial tilt. Any possible tilt in the pictures is thus irrelevant. What we can deduce from the comparison is a somewhat equal advancement of chin in relation to the lower lip, beyond the originally established Li-Pg lines.

The Ead's pictures I used were the week zero and week 44 ones which you can find by googlin Ronald Ead.

I didn't, I told you Ead's changes are in the alveolar ridge. His teeth moved forward giving more space to jut his lower jaw forward. It' similar to le fort 1 surgery in that you see it only changing the lower part of the upper jaw.

First off, the fracturing in le fort extends all the way to the nasal septum, not just the alveolar ridge. Practically the whole lower half of the maxilla gets advanced. Alveolar ridge in turn is about half of the lower half of the maxilla. Secondly, the mid-maxillary changes in Ead's case appear to go even further than the nasal septum, unless we assume that all observable difference is explained by unidenticality of camera angle.

Now, without going into further arguments regarding what did and did not change in Ead's case, all I am saying is that his mid-face appears to have changed in similar fashion as Helmut's.

 

Sorry, the expansion you show in your pictures is not 9mm, it's much less. I have my doubts about those the other claims.   

Thank you for your boundless wisdom.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Progress
ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 12:57 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

Your claim was that there was no movement of chin in relation to lower lip. This relationship is measured by the Li-Pg line, agree? Now Li-Pg relationship stays the same regardless of the facial tilt. Any possible tilt in the pictures is thus irrelevant. What we can deduce from the comparison is a somewhat equal advancement of chin in relation to the lower lip, beyond the originally established Li-Pg lines.

The Ead's pictures I used were the week zero and week 44 ones which you can find by googlin Ronald Ead.

If you draw a line you need consistent head tilt, if you draw an angle that is not needed. Ronald Ead's pictures have big changes in tilt because of his forward head correction. I will get the pictures, realign them, and post the gif.

First off, the fracturing in le fort extends all the way to the nasal septum, not just the alveolar ridge. Practically the whole lower half of the maxilla gets advanced. Alveolar ridge in turn is about half of the lower half of the maxilla. Secondly, the mid-maxillary changes in Ead's case appear to go even further than the nasal septum, unless we assume that all observable difference is explained by unidenticality of camera angle.

Now, without going into further arguments regarding what did and did not change in Ead's case, all I am saying is that his mid-face appears to have changed in similar fashion as Helmut's.

Unlike the standard le fort fracture presented in diagrams the cut in surgeries is made at the very base of the nasal septum just above the teeth roots and alveolar ridge. This covers 1/3rd of the maxilla length. Ronald's changes are specific to alveolar ridge and don't extend above the A point by much if any. I will make the illustration showing this along with the gif for the chin. 

Thank you for your boundless wisdom.

Well, that has nothing to do with wisdom, it has to do with knowledge. Going through many pictures of lateral expansion and learning from other cases, yours does not look as big as 9mm. There is certainly expansion but not as wide as you report in those picture, but if you are willing to listen to me about wisdom we would avoid this part of the discussion.

As I mentioned before everyone in this forum including you need some professional help to understand their case and track their progress. But you dismissed that on the grounds that you are a "pioneer" and embarking on something new that no one understands or can quantify yet.
 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 1:34 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Well, that has nothing to do with wisdom, it has to do with knowledge. Going through many pictures of lateral expansion and learning from other cases, yours does not look as big as 9mm. There is certainly expansion but not as wide as you report in those picture, but if you are willing to listen to me about wisdom we would avoid this part of the discussion. 

But he measured it, and all you have is an assesment.

Are you saying hes lying?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 2:20 pm
Arkey liked
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: bundfalke

But he measured it, and all you have is an assesment.

Are you saying hes lying?

No, but you obviously haven't seen my post about my orthodontist measuring my inter molar width and getting it wrong. It's very easy to be off by several mm especially when you don't know what you are doing.

There is another forum user who claimed he achieved 10mm. His claims were so impressive that other users started taking tips from him on how to achieve such results. One year later he posted that after checking his measurements it turned out his inter molar width was 10mm below his measurement.   

This is something I expected because several of his claims didn't add up, but more importantly his attitude and that of others on this forum conveys a great level of disregard for professional standards and practices.

In fact, he himself professed once that orthodontics is essentially useless. You can't trust people with that kind of attitude and view to know what they are talking about.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/06/2019 12:32 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Here is the gif.

Its clear where the expansion took place. Primarily in the upper alveolar ridge. Some will call this tipping and there certainly is some significant amount. It's obvious from the nasolabial angle, but also the "Sn" point moved forward relative to the nose indicating he achieved some forward expansion in his alveolar ridge. That point and everything below it represent 1/3 the maxilla.

The chin "Pg" has moved forward as well, but the lips moved further more. This is not the case with "Helmut's" chin. His chin projected forward without his lips changing much. That's the kind of effect you get from cosmetic procedures.

One last note, the position of the ears in the gif is the same, but the height is not. This is due to the pictures being taken at different heights. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/06/2019 12:44 am
Slinky
Trusted Member

how can someone prove they have had skeletal changes with mewing? Xrays? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/06/2019 12:14 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman

As I mentioned before everyone in this forum including you need some professional help to understand their case and track their progress. But you dismissed that on the grounds that you are a "pioneer" and embarking on something new that no one understands or can quantify yet.
 

Not sure if it was your intention, but this comes off as little more than a condescending strawman. Me carving my own path has little to do with my apathy towards scientifically legitimate methods of measuring change. The former is motivated by curiosity, the latter by poverty.

It's very easy to be off by several mm especially when you don't know what you are doing.

It's very difficult to be off by several mm if you are paying any attention at all. An error margin of 1 mm is achievable at home. It is possible that the change in my imw is 1-2 mm less than what I have measured... but if you insist it must be even more than that, that's just you.

Here is the gif.

You drew a line at N-Pg axis. Your claim was:

Ronald's Pg point (the most prominent point on his chin) didn't move forward one bit relative to the lower lip.

What you are higlighting in the gif is how much Sn, Li, Ls and Pg are moving in relation to the nasion (N). Which is a completely different thing than chin (Pg) moving in relation to lower lip (Li), no?

but more importantly his attitude and that of others on this forum conveys a great level of disregard for professional standards and practices.

Correct. Talking about professional practicioners getting a simple measurement off by huge margins does not generate high regard. 

I admit: I am pathologically contrarian by nature. It is a quality that comes with its own virtues and vices. Our approaches couldn't be more different from each other, so it's not surprising that we clash a lot.

One last note, the position of the ears in the gif is the same, but the height is not. This is due to the pictures being taken at different heights.

Good that you confirmed this.

I promise to read your reply, should you write one,  but I won't be answering to it since we are no longer discussing Helmut's case.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Progress
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Posted : 15/06/2019 7:41 pm
Arkey and Odys liked
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

Not sure if it was your intention, but this comes off as little more than a condescending strawman. Me carving my own path has little to do with my apathy towards scientifically legitimate methods of measuring change. The former is motivated by curiosity, the latter by poverty.

Do you recognize the problem with talking about progress and not having proper records? Because you are not just debating ideas and concepts, you are advocating for your own method of treatment while not having the least basic set of records to show what is happening with you.

It's very difficult to be off by several mm if you are paying any attention at all. An error margin of 1 mm is achievable at home. It is possible that the change in my imw is 1-2 mm less than what I have measured... but if you insist it must be even more than that, that's just you.

Not really, considering you could be measuring completely wrong. Just a question how are you able to measure inside your mouth between the narrowest points in your first molars without a dental cast? Are you aware that according to Mike Mew most people get this measurement incorrectly even with a cast?

Here is an important clarification. I don't know your exact starting or current IMW from the pictures you posted but I know the difference between the two does not amount to 9mm. That amount of expansion will look huge compared to what you are showing.

You drew a line at N-Pg axis. Your claim was:

Ronald's Pg point (the most prominent point on his chin) didn't move forward one bit relative to the lower lip.

What you are higlighting in the gif is how much Sn, Li, Ls and Pg are moving in relation to the nasion (N). Which is a completely different thing than chin (Pg) moving in relation to lower lip (Li), no?

The line you see coming down from the nasion is called the facial plane. It serves as a fixed point for comparing the movement of other points. You can disregard it and look at Pg and Li points. They both move forward but notice how the lower lip "Li" moves forward more than the chin "Pg". This indicates they both moved forward but relative to each other the chin has not moved forward of the lip. 

Correct. Talking about professional practicioners getting a simple measurement off by huge margins does not generate high regard. 

Please don't twist my words I did not say that. Your fellow forum member got his measurement off by a huge margin, not my orthodontist. He, with all his expertise, still got it wrong when he used a none standard method to measure and got it right when he used standard method with a dental cast.  

I admit: I am pathologically contrarian by nature. It is a quality that comes with its own virtues and vices. Our approaches couldn't be more different from each other, so it's not surprising that we clash a lot.

This problem shows in many of the ideas you promote on the forum. 

 

I promise to read your reply, should you write one,  but I won't be answering to it since we are no longer discussing Helmut's case

Up to you but please note that many of those unrelated points were in response to points that you brought up.
 

 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/06/2019 12:29 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Slinky

how can someone prove they have had skeletal changes with mewing? Xrays? 

CBCT x-rays are very useful because they can be done with pretty consistent settings. CT scans are the best but produce too much radiation. And of course they would need to have them before and after to compare the changes.

 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/06/2019 12:32 am
Slinky
Trusted Member

i honestly don't understand what someone would gain from faking mewing progress with fillers?  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/06/2019 9:53 am
Odys liked
Kyte
 Kyte
Trusted Member
Posted by: Slinky

i honestly don't understand what someone would gain from faking mewing progress with fillers?  

Hi,

nothing, but cosmetic surgery isnt commonly accepted, so some people prefer say they mewed. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Kyte
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Posted : 17/06/2019 11:22 am
Freddie
Eminent Member
Posted by: Kyte
Posted by: Slinky

i honestly don't understand what someone would gain from faking mewing progress with fillers?  

Hi,

nothing, but cosmetic surgery isnt commonly accepted, so some people prefer say they mewed. 

If he really was feeling unaccepted by his close friends and family why would he come on such a forum and start to lie about his progress. Most people here claimed a lot of things about his face and what he did, he certainly doesn’t feel more accepted if it was the purpose of this post. A lot of other people had big results on other forum and here, they all used surgery and lied about their changes ? That seems more hard to believe than the fact that they simply had huge changes. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Freddie
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Posted : 17/06/2019 5:16 pm
Kyte
 Kyte
Trusted Member
Posted by: Freddie
Posted by: Kyte
Posted by: Slinky

i honestly don't understand what someone would gain from faking mewing progress with fillers?  

Hi,

nothing, but cosmetic surgery isnt commonly accepted, so some people prefer say they mewed. 

If he really was feeling unaccepted by his close friends and family why would he come on such a forum and start to lie about his progress. Most people here claimed a lot of things about his face and what he did, he certainly doesn’t feel more accepted if it was the purpose of this post. A lot of other people had big results on other forum and here, they all used surgery and lied about their changes ? That seems more hard to believe than the fact that they simply had huge changes. 

Hey! I was just answering to slinky. Maybe I sounded too skeptical, sorry, but I trust this guy's progress!

Pics are taken rather well and he seems to have a good conception of how to mew

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/06/2019 9:27 pm
skinnyboiii
Active Member

I aligned all three images.

The difference is obvious, however there is something that went unmentioned (as far as I can tell) which is that in the latest photo his head is rotated just slightly (you can tell by the ear and the presence of the brow on the opposite side) which gives the impression that his face moved more forward than it actually did. I believe he was *ever so slightly* turned away from the camera in the first two pictures. In any case, the slight rotation does not take away too much from the very real difference. I'd like to kindly ask @helmutstrebl to take another picture (if possible) hat has the same rotation as the first two pictures for a more accurate comparison. This might assuage the skeptics as well.

https://imgur.com/a/xxKbj7m

This post was modified 2 months ago 4 times by skinnyboiii
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Posted : 18/06/2019 1:03 am
Kyte
 Kyte
Trusted Member

@skinnyboiii

The change that I take in count more is the straighter nose, because It may be an indicator of the advancement of the maxilla, supporting it more. 

I tried this trick photoshopping my face trying to straighten my nose advancing the maxilla way before this guy updated his progress. This Is what I got

I had to reduce the gonial angle to make up for upswing i simulated

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by Kyte
ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/06/2019 1:23 am
Mew2235
New Member

Anyone else think the reason his front two teeth were moved was because of the tongue pressuring them forward while mewing?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/06/2019 12:50 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

The more I look over this guy's case, the more I'm convinced that his chin-level changes are not the result of mewing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/06/2019 3:46 am
dm222
Trusted Member

So are you saying he did two chin augmentation surgeries?

Doesnt make sense....

 

Why would he do another? Because in the first progress pic looks fine already

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/06/2019 4:40 am
Odys liked
Fknasymetries
Active Member

I also cannot believe that this  is only the result of mewing  but i can't stop asking myself why does he spend so much time and dedication giving other peoples advices etc. I mean i just checked his reddit post and this man doesn't stop posting, answering questions and trying to help peoples as best as he can. He doesn' have any product nor service to sell so why going that far if it was a lie?

This post was modified 2 months ago by Fknasymetries
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Posted : 20/06/2019 5:35 pm
skinnyboiii
Active Member

Aligning the mandibles gives a different point of view on @helmustrebl's changes:

1. Notice how the muscular balance in the neck shifts from front to back

2. The entire cranium moves back and up away from the jawline

3. Ear position changes

This post was modified 2 months ago by skinnyboiii
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Posted : 20/06/2019 11:30 pm
skinnyboiii
Active Member

@greekgodbrody, @abdulrahman, @Progress,

I don't think @helmutstrebl's chin actually changed that much. I worked from the starting guess that the mandible didn't actually change in length as a result of mewing. I lined up the chins and voila:

Notice how the total jaw length doesn't actually appear to change (well at least not obviously -- it's difficult to tell.) Notice also how the SCM sternum tendon and chin are in the same relative position from picture to picture. You can see the expected shortening of the anterior neck muscles and strengthening of the posterior ones. You can also see that from this point of view, the entire upper part of the face/head moves upwards and backwards with respect to the jaw. The chin only changes ever so slightly. If he got a chin implant, you'd think the length of the entire mandible would be different. But it isn't obviously different.

Here you can see that the head, neck, and camera have a different relationship than in the first two images. His mouth may even have been slightly open in the B&W picture. His head is rotated slightly towards the camera in this one.You can tell by the ears and by the mandibular angle. The change is more consistent with a rotation of the head than any dramatic facial remodeling, though by the looks of it there has been some between these two pictures.

His initial pictures give the impression that his chin is getting bigger, but I have the feeling something more nuanced is happening.

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Posted : 21/06/2019 5:13 am
Freddie liked
ohwhatthehell
Eminent Member

I deluded myself into believing this at first, but the more I look at it the more trouble I have lol. It's just too much. Dude went from being an average looking, slightly effeminate-faced man to being a super model.

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Posted : 21/06/2019 6:58 pm
skinnyboiii
Active Member
Posted by: ohwhatthehell

I deluded myself into believing this at first, but the more I look at it the more trouble I have lol. It's just too much. Dude went from being an average looking, slightly effeminate-faced man to being a super model.

Man, the more I see comments like this, the more I feel like it's just haters hating. I mean, y'all can feel free to be skeptical, but this isn't skepticism, it's pessimism.

No one batted an eye -- or hardly even commented -- on the other case I posted ( https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/another-interesting-case-from-reddit-2-years/) which shows even more dramatic changes in the cranium than this case, and in an older person too. But he didn't get model-handsome, so...

There was no change in his face that couldn't be attributed to mewing -- none of the changes were so dramatic that they were impossible. We are talking millimeters of change, everywhere. That's it. And he is the only one we know who claims to hard mew 24/7 and chin tuck hours per day.

If this were faked, tell me: how? Was it plastic surgery? If so, did he have them move his ears too, and correct his neck posture? Did he tell them to move his front teeth forward to add an air of credibility - and then at the same time throw a wrench in the whole thing by getting a chin implant?

Or did it actually happen, and people don't want to believe it... just 'cuz.

I'm not saying it's real for sure. But I don't see anything in it to make me think it obviously isn't real. He's provided more than enough before/afters, information on his technique, and said he will continue to mew and update. Now does this sound like someone who's trying to fool the internet but is secretly continuously getting tens of thousands of dollars of plastic surgery a year, or some curious guy who's actually following through and doing what he says he's doing and trying to be helpful?

(edited for clarity)

This post was modified 2 months ago 3 times by skinnyboiii
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Posted : 21/06/2019 7:12 pm
devicem, Pame and Adam liked
Slinky
Trusted Member
Posted by: skinnyboiii
Posted by: ohwhatthehell

I deluded myself into believing this at first, but the more I look at it the more trouble I have lol. It's just too much. Dude went from being an average looking, slightly effeminate-faced man to being a super model.

Man, the more I see comments like this, the more I feel like it's just haters hating. I mean, y'all can feel free to be skeptical, but this isn't skepticism, it's pessimism.

No one batted an eye -- or hardly even commented -- on the other case I posted ( https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/another-interesting-case-from-reddit-2-years/) which shows even more dramatic changes in the cranium than this case, and in an older person too. But he didn't get model-handsome, so...

There was no change in his face that couldn't be attributed to mewing -- none of the changes were so dramatic that they were impossible. We are talking millimeters of change, everywhere. That's it. And he is the only one we know who claims to hard mew 24/7 and chin tuck hours per day.

If this were faked, tell me: how? Was it plastic surgery? If so, did he have them move his ears too, and correct his neck posture? Did he tell them to move his front teeth forward to add an air of credibility - and then at the same time throw a wrench in the whole thing by getting a chin implant?

Or did it actually happen, and people don't want to believe it... just 'cuz.

I'm not saying it's real for sure. But I don't see anything in it to make me think it obviously isn't real. He's provided more than enough before/afters, information on his technique, and said he will continue to mew and update. Now does this sound like someone who's trying to fool the internet but is secretly continuously getting tens of thousands of dollars of plastic surgery a year, or some curious guy who's actually following through and doing what he says he's doing and trying to be helpful?

(edited for clarity)

He has worse posture in the after photo making the mandible more pronounced.

The case posted here shows his chin growing out of nowhere and dorsal hump disappearing completely. We don't see that even in kids so it's very possible he has had fillers

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Posted : 23/06/2019 2:51 am
skinnyboiii
Active Member
Posted by: Slinky

He has worse posture in the after photo making the mandible more pronounced.

The case posted here shows his chin growing out of nowhere and dorsal hump disappearing completely. We don't see that even in kids so it's very possible he has had fillers

His posture is better in the second photo, even better in the third. Happy to have a reasonable discussion about this, but what you do when you can't even agree on the basic facts?

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Posted : 23/06/2019 5:45 am
dapi liked
ohwhatthehell
Eminent Member

I agreed with you about the original after picture that he posted. However, in the paused video, he's lacking most of those mewing qualities. It looks like he slightly shopped the after photo to give the illusion of forward growth. I don't doubt that he mews and some of his results are likely from that, but that chin growth is just absolutely insane. People saying it's just the angle of his chin are nuts; it literally grew more than 1cm straight out. It's still an incredible transformation, whether surgical or not, he looks great. I still choose to let it inspire me to try harder. I'm still going to try the methods he suggests, but I simply can't set my expectations anywhere near what's in that photo. I'm not yet convinced that that level of change is possible.

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Posted : 23/06/2019 10:54 am
Slinky
Trusted Member

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Posted : 23/06/2019 1:48 pm
skinnyboiii
Active Member
Posted by: ohwhatthehell

I agreed with you about the original after picture that he posted. However, in the paused video, he's lacking most of those mewing qualities. It looks like he slightly shopped the after photo to give the illusion of forward growth. I don't doubt that he mews and some of his results are likely from that, but that chin growth is just absolutely insane. People saying it's just the angle of his chin are nuts; it literally grew more than 1cm straight out. It's still an incredible transformation, whether surgical or not, he looks great. I still choose to let it inspire me to try harder. I'm still going to try the methods he suggests, but I simply can't set my expectations anywhere near what's in that photo. I'm not yet convinced that that level of change is possible.

Please see my post above, on this page. He didn't do a perfect job and took the third photo from a slightly different angle. The forward growth and chin are exaggerated slightly because of this. Until @helmutstrebl sends us an updated photo from the same angle, conclusions about how he looks today are somewhat limited.

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Posted : 23/06/2019 11:25 pm
ohwhatthehell
Eminent Member

That's fair. At any rate, it got me mewing harder and I have seen results for sure. I just don't expect to become the Crimson Chin. Actually, the photos from that "Ronald Ead" guy near the top of this thread look very much like real mewing and I see no reason to doubt them. They are also extremely impressive. He went from looking like a random dude to like he's probably a professional athlete.

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Posted : 24/06/2019 12:07 am
Odys
 Odys
Eminent Member

Ronald Ead has not achieved his results through Mewing but through a succession of dramatic orthodontic treatments, some succesful some not.

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Posted : 24/06/2019 2:06 am
skinnyboiii
Active Member
Posted by: Slinky

Ah I see you were talking about this case when you said "he". I thought you were referring to the OP.

@slinky what are you trying to show here? Look at the .gif -- the posture may be different but his whole head changed. The heads are the same size in each picture and the mandibles are aligned. (You may also notice that something happens to the chin -- feel free to comment here.)

NB. In the images below the head may be at a very slightly different angle in each photo (it will never be exact) but the changes are indisputable (provided you think that the picture is real.)

 

This post was modified 2 months ago 4 times by skinnyboiii
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Posted : 24/06/2019 2:12 am
135
 135
Active Member

Hey @helmutstrebl

I just wanted to say, thanks for coming on the forum and posting all your pics and sharing all your info. On reddit too. I know I speak on behalf of many people when I say that you're a huge inspiration.

Simply always knowing that you can look like a new, hugely improved person in only 1-2 years is so motivating to do the exercises every day. It's a reminder that it really does depend on how hard you want to work, and that if you do work hard, it pays off.

The accusation of fillers throughout your entire face really had me laughing. I won't start with that, but I understand people suspicious of maybe some cosmetic work somewhere. The reason I believe it is all organic growth is simply that no change in your features seems out of place or unbelievable in comparison to the changes in your other features. For example, your eyes and brow - I think it would be ridiculous to say that that is an implant/filler. But it's a huge change. That adds credibility to your jaw changing in a similarly significant way.  

Also, the change in the actual SHAPE of your cervical spine... that can't be faked and it's such a change to yourself you've made. That also adds credibility to, let's say, your chin progress being organic. I also really think your improved beard coverage on your chin makes an illusion that is harder to believe.

Anyway, thanks again! Can't wait to see your January 2020 pics. 

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Posted : 25/06/2019 3:26 pm
Recott and Bison liked
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

@Ray135

 Thanks man. Heres another before and after. I started bonesmashing as well now so i’m hoping i’ll get even better results. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Helmutstrebl
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Posted : 25/06/2019 3:53 pm
Bison, Mangas77, 135 and 1 people liked
135
 135
Active Member

@helmutstrebl Holy crapoli man, the pics just get more impressive.

I have mixed feelings about bonesmashing, though. If you do that, you can't claim this more natural "mewing transformation." I mean, hard mewing already isn't really "mewing," but bonesmashing would add in something very different and off-putting to a lot of people, and that will lose a bunch of people. Maybe you don't care about that though. Personally, the reason I am opting to not use a palate expander is that, in the end, I want to be able to talk about how all this is accomplishable with pretty much just your tongue. Other people here have very good reasons for getting an expander, but I am getting significant results without one. So why intervene with something that carries additional risks? Bonesmashing certainly carries risks.

On the other hand, if you were a hobbyist boxer, you would be exposed to similar forces on your face naturally...

Frankly, I've been tempted to try bonesmashing with the back of a metal spoon, taptaptapping all around my eyes, cheekbones, jawline etc. I think at least that approach is less dangerous than the people that do boneSMASHing.

In my opinion, your progress is amazing and keeps getting better. You're blowing the rest of us out of the water - why do you want to add bonesmashing?

This post was modified 2 months ago 5 times by 135
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Posted : 25/06/2019 4:12 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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