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Community Lurker
Active Member

I think his chin change might actually make sense. He said in his before progress picture that he had problems with his smile, with his teeth tipping forward. Now i'm not sure if this is true what i read in the comments here, but it's interesting to me nonetheless and i'm curious if there were valid things said here:

"

Front teeth tilting out is good let’s your lower jaw come forward

But it [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up the smile dude

12 points·3 months ago

Temporarily unless your lower jaw doesn’t come forward eventually. If you notice a bit of a overbite developing you should be able to push your lower jaw forward to meet the more forward upper teeth. Try to keep the lower jaw there so your bite reforms in that new position.

 

11 points·3 months ago

It's because your tongue is touching your teeth pushing them outwards

1 point·3 months ago

You can push your teeth back with your hands. Use pressure at some point every day."

 

Assuming that this notion of 'teeth tipped forward = lets lower jaw come forward', it would seem likely that this is exactly what happened. You can also see it in the gif progress posted with Jamo's pics that his lower jaw moved forward to meet his upper jaw in a more alligned way. This might explain why the chin became even more prominent.

 

Am i perhaps onto something here?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 4:01 pm
focusxf liked
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@Community Lurker

"Front teeth tilting out is good let’s your lower jaw come forward"

I am very sure this is not how it works

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 4:50 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

I think so, in my opinion it doesn't seem out of the ordinary your chin would start projecting more from mewing and/or chewing. 

Image result for jamo mewing

I think the remodeling of the skull, maxilla, and mandible is more complicated than we can yet understand, especially for people on a forum commenting without any formal education on this subject. So if the reddit guy got surgery did jamo as well? His chin obviously projects more as a result of mewing. Honestly, I think some people here are a little too cynical, people readily admit it's possible to make small changes to the face and maxilla, yet it's somehow inconceivable that those small changes over a longer period of time can add up to make a big difference. Why shouldn't it be possible to completely remodel the maxilla and skull? What indication points to it not being possible besides people being doubtful and cynical? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 4:50 pm
Arkey liked
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@sinned

"Why shouldn't it be possible to completely remodel the maxilla and skull? What indication points to it not being possible besides people being doubtful and cynical?"

In my opinion its because i think the tongue is not strong enough to generate forces that initiate bone remodeling in adults. I very much believe its possible in children and even young teenagers.

Im also sceptical because i have never, never seen true evidence from an adult who changed his maxilla through mewing.

The cropped pictures people post here, with different cameras, different distances, different angles, different beard lengths, different head posture, different bodyfat/muscle weight, different lighting. This is not true evidence. Its not even anecdotal evidence. From a professional standpoint, its nothing really.

In all these years, i have never seen actual evidence from a adult who has done it. Never. Not even once.

Im still going to mew until i die because thats how its supposed to be, wether im going to get anything out of it or not.

I do not doubt that its impossible to remodel or even "move" an adults maxilla in some sort of way. I just do not think your tongue has the power to do it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 5:29 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: bundfalke

As far as i know he can make his cartilage any shape he wants. And the improvements from that woman are very impressive, far from small. Do you have any idea how much sailer costs?

He can control it within small volumes, once the amount is increased it goes out of control. That woman had multiple procedures. Sailer is a very tricky surgeon with a track record of over promising and under delivering.

Honestly if those fillers just dissapear completely after 2 years without causing any problems, i'd say they are a good alternative to permanent cartilage implants like those from sailer.

I dont know if fillers like that exist though.

They have their own drawbacks. The pictures you are seeing are fresh out of the procedure. Complications are very common. Permanent onlays are more predictable. Osteotomies are the most solid, because they do not introduce any foreign object to the body. However, their effect is small and come with the highest initial risk due to the bone sawing, etc. 

 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 11:05 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: sinned

I think the remodeling of the skull, maxilla, and mandible is more complicated than we can yet understand, especially for people on a forum commenting without any formal education on this subject. So if the reddit guy got surgery did jamo as well? His chin obviously projects more as a result of mewing.

That argument can be used against people who think those results are real. They try to explain such changes without having a clue what they are talking about. Its very possible jamo had fillers too. Anyone frustrated with their mewing progress can have a simple procedure and look closer to their desired ideal and then post the transformation as a result of "hard mewing".

 

Honestly, I think some people here are a little too cynical, people readily admit it's possible to make small changes to the face and maxilla, yet it's somehow inconceivable that those small changes over a longer period of time can add up to make a big difference. Why shouldn't it be possible to completely remodel the maxilla and skull? What indication points to it not being possible besides people being doubtful and cynical? 

What do you expect when Mike Mew, the Godfather of mewing, goes on record saying that kylie jenner cheeks are wider because of tongue posture? He has been talking about changing facial form in adults for at least 5 years and has not produced a single verifiable example. Normally when you suggest a new idea that challenges accepted norms you provide reproducible evidence. That has to happen before people accept this kind of change is possible. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 11:26 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

He hasn't produced results because at the end of the day the results are up to the patient not him. That's my opinion at least, that you can get all the treatment in the world but when it comes to it all you need to do is have proper tongue and body posture. The reality is most people don't have the dedication to hold proper tongue posture 24/7, not only because it's hard but it can also be painful. Most treatment I think doesn't work, you can't change habit with exercises and appliances, and you can only motivate a person to change their habits to a degree, it's really up to the person to change. Not only do appliances and exercises not fix habits, the appliances themselves can't remodel the maxilla, even a face pull mask. And for palate expanders, while it gives room for the tongue, it's not actively changing the patient's habits, thus it's always possible to regress your expansion.

I believe the maxilla remodels through adaptive shortening of the palatoglossus muscle or something of that sort, not from direct tongue force. This is the reason I think face pulling masks don't work that well, face pulling masks are trying to emulate the tongue pushing up when it's not even the direct force of the tongue remodeling the maxilla, it's the muscle that elevates the tongue and in response pulling down and forward on the maxilla that remodels the maxilla. Basically my point is I think the only way to get change is through your tongue and the information is already out there so there's no need to go to an ortho like Mike Mew. That is of course what I believe, I might be wrong. I do think him saying Kylie Jenner's cheeks are wider because of tongue posture is quite stupid, while I do appreciate Mike Mew for spreading the word on tongue posture I believe there's no need to get treatment from him or anybody for that matter unless you are an especially bad case who needs help, otherwise it's a waste of money.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 1:33 am
Arkey liked
ITZY_BITZY
Active Member

he is got a witch chin now looks awful... but his mid face is a lot better.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 2:06 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: sinned

He hasn't produced results because at the end of the day the results are up to the patient not him. That's my opinion at least, that you can get all the treatment in the world but when it comes to it all you need to do is have proper tongue and body posture. The reality is most people don't have the dedication to hold proper tongue posture 24/7, not only because it's hard but it can also be painful. Most treatment I think doesn't work, you can't change habit with exercises and appliances, and you can only motivate a person to change their habits to a degree, it's really up to the person to change. Not only do appliances and exercises not fix habits, the appliances themselves can't remodel the maxilla, even a face pull mask. And for palate expanders, while it gives room for the tongue, it's not actively changing the patient's habits, thus it's always possible to regress your expansion.

This point applies to any treatment that requires patient effort. Therefore I have to ask, why are myofunctional therapist for example able to produce results with their patients and clearly demonstrate it, while Mike supposedly can't with adult mewing?

Heck, you dont have to go that far. Why is John Mew able to achieve results using Orthotropics with children? Once you consider this you realize nothing is stopping Mike Mew from finding good and dedicated subjects for his adult mewing theory. 

I believe the maxilla remodels through adaptive shortening of the palatoglossus muscle or something of that sort, not from direct tongue force. This is the reason I think face pulling masks don't work that well, face pulling masks are trying to emulate the tongue pushing up when it's not even the direct force of the tongue remodeling the maxilla, it's the muscle that elevates the tongue and in response pulling down and forward on the maxilla that remodels the maxilla. Basically my point is I think the only way to get change is through your tongue and the information is already out there so there's no need to go to an ortho like Mike Mew. That is of course what I believe, I might be wrong. I do think him saying Kylie Jenner's cheeks are wider because of tongue posture is quite stupid, while I do appreciate Mike Mew for spreading the word on tongue posture I believe there's no need to get treatment from him or anybody for that matter unless you are an especially bad case who needs help, otherwise it's a waste of money.

With all due respect, this paragraphs holds several examples of how the mewing community knows nothing about what they are talking about. They create fancy sounding theories that have absolutely no bases in clinical practice.

Don't get me wrong theorizing is not the problem. Making judgments, however such as the need to hard mew to get results which goes against established medical practices (even Mike Mew hinted to this) or not seeking treatment with professionals unless you are a very sever case is awful.

This case is an example of this.  Some random dude drops few pictures on reddit (and later a video) showing improvements in his face and body posture and claims he did it through hard mewing. Sorry that doesn't make sense and goes against any medical principles including alternative ones. 

Ideally Mike Mew should take charge of what he started and invite volunteers to experiment. Have them visit him to take records, supervise their technique, and follow their progress periodically to verify any results.

Don't believe any excuses. If his farther did it for decades to prove Orthotropics so can he do it. He can easily set a simple objective such as monitoring the IMW of 20 adults who are practicing mewing. Record their progress in 3 months intervals for 1 year. If the results show some progress use the successful cases for the next round to monitor expansion in the sagittal direction and so forth.

Do you know how amazing that would have been? To upload a video discussing the results of the experiment with half for example achieving some level of expansion and the best case achieving 10mm of expansion!

He could have easily done this since 2017 when his followers reached 25,000 on youtube and covered the small costs of materials through crowd funding.

Wanna guess why he didn't?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 2:11 am
ITZY_BITZY
Active Member

your chin should be slightly behind ur lip 

 

what matters most is ur mid face ratio and fullness... flat face is unattractive.... cheekbones don't matter at all... 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 4:25 am
Arkey
Active Member

I'm probably just idealistic, but isn't the point of having a forum like this to look at posts like this with optimism first?

I don't get the vibe that a fella like this would have gotten surgery, what jerk-off 23 year old can afford that? I definitely can't!

If people show bad results, well it confirms that mewing doesn't do anything. If people show good results, we immediately jump to the conclusion that is has to be surgery.

With that mentality, I just don't get why people are on this forum.. What do you hope to achieve with your time here?

This guy, like many others who have shown results, says how religiously he was practicing mewing. "Hard mewing 24/7. I push upwards so hard that the area under my jaw (hyoid) starts burning. Sometimes its difficult to fall asleep for me as i’m mewing so hard." That's what I'm gonna take away from this.

- Mewing for 6+ months
- IMW: 35mm (no expansion)
- Sleep on the floor without a pillow
- Tape mouth at night
- Continue to emphasise chin-tuck/occipital drive for extended periods
- Chew Mastic Tears for 1 hour every other day

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 5:08 am
Adam, dragonshark and 135 liked
krollic
Reputable Member

I believe him. He's constantly provided many photos over the time period, videos included, seems highly knowledgeable on mewing, constantly discusses with and answers questions for people across several different social media platforms and is clearly one of the most dedicated mewers alive. He puts tremendous effort, not only in terms of will but power into his routine and I don't think it's so unreasonable to believe that increased forces can lead to accelerated bone change.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 5:22 am
Adam and Arkey liked
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Arkey

I'm probably just idealistic, but isn't the point of having a forum like this to look at posts like this with optimism first?

You think someone who has been squeezing out drops of results for the past 2 years and still on it is not optimistic?

I don't get the vibe that a fella like this would have gotten surgery, what jerk-off 23 year old can afford that? I definitely can't!

Plenty of people of that age have parents that can afford it. Heck there is even parents that get this as birthday and graduation gifts for their kids. One more thing, fillers are very cheap compared to surgery.

If people show bad results, well it confirms that mewing doesn't do anything. If people show good results, we immediately jump to the conclusion that is has to be surgery.

With that mentality, I just don't get why people are on this forum..

What do you hope to achieve with your time here?

Because correcting oral and body function and posture brings great health benefits and supports other expansive treatments that you see us discussing here. Heck I argue "mewing" can improve your surgery results by insuring your tongue never falls into your throat.

This guy, like many others who have shown results, says how religiously he was practicing mewing. "Hard mewing 24/7. I push upwards so hard that the area under my jaw (hyoid) starts burning. Sometimes its difficult to fall asleep for me as i’m mewing so hard." That's what I'm gonna take away from this.

And that's the problem, people take this nonsense and run with it! Did you see how stiff this guy head was moving in the video? That's probably the greatest result he achieved, hyper tonic muscles all over his neck.

Trust me man, people questioning this stuff are allot more optimistic than you think. They are also allot more rational.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 5:27 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member

cough* without anything to comment it, i just wanna throw in this picture from john mews website:

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 7:40 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

A reason that I am skeptical of people getting surgery/fillers and then claiming that it is because of mewing is that typically people getting procedures done don't want to let anyone know that they changed their appearance. Someone getting fillers isn't likely to mention it to anybody, let alone go online and share their "before" photos. 

As before, scans are really the only way that we can empirically confirm any instance of bone development

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 8:32 am
Mangas77 and krollic liked
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: TGW

A reason that I am skeptical of people getting surgery/fillers and then claiming that it is because of mewing is that typically people getting procedures done don't want to let anyone know that they changed their appearance. Someone getting fillers isn't likely to mention it to anybody, let alone go online and share their "before" photos. 

As before, scans are really the only way that we can empirically confirm any instance of bone development

 

I agree. I get why people are saying that people try to pass off their surgeries as "mewing". It makes sense. But then i wouldnt expect the person to go out of his way to post pictures on the internet and let thousands of people see it.

We also shouldnt forget the guy lost alot of weight in those years.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 8:57 am
Arkey liked
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: sinned

Honestly, I think some people here are a little too cynical, people readily admit it's possible to make small changes to the face and maxilla, yet it's somehow inconceivable that those small changes over a longer period of time can add up to make a big difference. 

The core of the issue I see here goes deeper than just mewing. It highlights a fundamental difference in cognitive modes between the forum users. Abdul's cognitive temperament is great for processing large amounts of detailed information, but awful for thinking out of the box. In other words, he is only capable of approaching any subject in terms of what is already known to be true by whatever sources he is using. He is either incapable or unwilling to entertain the various ways in which he could be wrong. Anything that goes against his understanding must "make no sense", because he assumes that if something did make sense, he would already be aware of it.

The temperament for many others in this forum, on the other hand, is the opposite: they are great at thinking out of the box, but awful at minding the details. Their theories might be anything in between truthful and delusional, because their intellectual foundation is only rudimentarily based on actual reality.

Without going into inane arguments regarding the superiority of either temperament, I'm just saying that as long as these differences are not acknowledged by both parties, these kind of conversations will be unsatisfying. Abdul thinks he is being rational and skeptical, yet he is also blind to his own inability to think laterally. To someone else, who can see all the ways in which Abdul's certainty is unearned, he is borderline offending. It's an inconvenient match, but with little understanding from both sides, it can be overcome.

@abdulrahman there is no reason anyone should 'trust you' in particular. I am sure everyone here is aware of the doubts you have brought up. You are not on some superiorly enlightened level by simply being able to question things. Questioning is an intermediate level skill. The lowest level is believing everything. The highest level? Identifying ways in which a questionable thing could be true. Only on this level will groundbreaking discoveries be made. I hope you are not confusing the forementioned lowest and highest levels with each other, as it sometimes seems. If it were up to me, I would make this forum all about the latter. Enthusiastic speculation wins over conservative skepticism any day.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 9:16 am
maze, Autokrator, EddieMoney and 3 people liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

@abdulrahman is very qualified to talk about this subject, and I think his grounded ability to balance the hope of finding a solution with the actual clinical / scientific results has been done in a very healthy and constructive way.

I personally had no idea that fillers could cause such immense change across the entire face until he posted examples. 

I agree with him here:

Trust me man, people questioning this stuff are allot more optimistic than you think. 

With the amount of helpful posting he's done here, I don't think anyone can question that Abdulrahman (and other healthy skeptics) are optimistic about eventually finding a way to correct improper development. Yet until someone posts an xray/scan showing that their bone has changed, it's just opinions vs opinions. 

We know this stuff works in children. Mike Mew himself is on the same level of healthy skepticism as some posters here about results in adults. 

@progress

If it were up to me, I would make this forum all about the latter. Enthusiastic speculation wins over conservative skepticism any day.

A healthy balance sir. Proof trumps all, and we've got no empirical proof in adult humans (yet). 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 9:42 am
Progress
Member Moderator

Abdul is obviously a knowledgeable and valuable member. It's not my intention to imply otherwise. I am more concerned of his self-assured "trust me"-rhetoric than the breadth of information that he is backing it up with. Of course this could be just my personal issue, but I thought it would be worth bringing up in case it's something more.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 10:14 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

@TGW my hero! thank you!!

@progress putting aside all the incorrect things you said about me I have a question for you. Since you speak of creative thinking, can anyone express their creativity without learning to speak first? Can anyone author a novel without knowing how to write first? Can anyone direct a movie without learning how to manage a film operation first? 

I think you know what I am hinting to. Before you can explore the cosmos like Galileo, you need to know how to operate the damn telescope. Otherwise that shining star you think you are looking at and nobody else sees might just turn out to be your neighbors dimmed bathroom light!

Applying this to the forum, many of you guys have jumped into creating your own form of "hard" mewing before even understanding proper mewing as advised by Mike Mew. This was in part by necessity as Mike's content was not clear. Plus he is not very responsive to the user base. But it’s no excuse for anyone to create medical advice from their imagination, especially when correct information becomes available.

Medical facts come way before anyone’s “creativity” including our friend, the subject of this topic, who is practicing mewing with such “religious” zealous he has actually gone beyond “hard mewing”. He as well start calling his method “Jihad Mewing”!

 

Now to ease the atmosphere I made a little creative story explaining “Jihad Mewing”

creative person 1: hey maaan, did you hear about “jihad mewing”???

creative person 2: wat dhat??

creative person 1: it’s the new way to look like a model!

creative person 2: how!?

creative person 1: just push with your tongue as hard as you can

creative person 2: where??

creative person 1: anywhere you want to grow your jaws, just push!  

creative person 2: I am pushing, but nothing is happening

creative person 1: well, you got to push harder! harder!

creative person 2: I am! so hard, I am bleeding!

creative person 1: f*** man, you don’t know what you are doing!

 

I hope you enjoyed my little creative story J

PS. One last thing, I used “trust me” in reference to my personal optimism about the subject.  

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 11:03 am
varbrah liked
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman

I think you know what I am hinting to.

I'm not a psychic. If you want to deliver a point, I wish you'd speak directly, lest we build a whole discussion based on misinterpretation of the other. Based on how it seems to me, your point is that without sufficient comprehension of medical jargon, one is not fit to understand anything about medical processes. Which to me seems like a misguided assumption, since jargon itself points to concepts, and concepts are based on phenomena that are freely observable by anyone.

But it’s no excuse for anyone to create medical advice from their imagination, especially when correct information becomes available.

Correct information is an awkward and deceptive concept. Even words, by default, are delusion. They attach imaginary meaning to things where such meaning may or may not serve a beneficial role. This creates a strict limit to jargon-based approach: it restricts you to dealing with things that have been previously observed and defined. What has not been observed and defined is then thought to not exist. The very same faulty reasoning has led to popularization of reductionist materialism in the modern scientific community. At best, one learns to be mindful of this innate flaw. At worst, they end up with denial as their only choice in the face of an observation that does not conform to their understanding of the reality. Which from my perspective is exactly what is happening here. Rather than taking into account the rare dedication of the person, and the transparency with which the claimed results are presented, you feel compelled to reject any notion of his truthfulness simply because "it doesn't make sense" to you, even though there are multiple medically legitimate ways to explain why it would make sense, from adaption under sustained bone strain to metabolic-hormonal effects of trigeminal nerve stimulation.

I wouldn't be concerned if you just doubted him. But you seem obnoxiously sure of your judgement. How do you justify this?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 12:19 pm
devicem liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

As this has become a discussion between the two of you, and seems to be delving into philosophy, I request that you continue via PM (if you wish) instead of in this thread

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 12:38 pm
Bison
New Member

Bit confused about this but what progress pic you think he got the fillers in Abdul? In Progress pic 2 or 3. If the fillers do regress over time are you saying he got them done again in pic 3

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 2:20 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Bison

Bit confused about this but what progress pic you think he got the fillers in Abdul? In Progress pic 2 or 3. If the fillers do regress over time are you saying he got them done again in pic 3

I don't know exactly what he did, I just know he did something and shared with everyone the different methods available to achieve similar results. Weather it be via filler, implants, etc I dont know exactly what he did, but my comments were mainly made about his last progress picture.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 2:32 pm
James
Eminent Member

His first after photo looks plausibly created by Mewing plus jutting his mandible forward. His second update looks really suspicious, especially the chin. Maybe chin fillers.

Something else nobody has caught is that his 2nd update photo is not a full profile shot, because we can see part of his other eyebrow.

His face has gotten a lot more masculine and robust, but I am really skeptical that Mewing is enough to do this. Especially when his exaggerated chin growth makes me suspect that Mewing is not the whole story here.  Maturation is one possibility. But another possibility is that he is on testosterone or HGH. These can affect jaw development. If so, then his stack of interventions could be Mewing + chin filler + juice.

Is it likely that someone would put together 3 different interventions? Maybe in the past it would have been unlikely, but nowadays, a guy really dedicated to looksmaxing with the support of forums could absolutely come up with an elaborate protocol like this.

His submental area (under the chin) has improved a lot. I can believe that this is due to Mewing. Especially if he is deliberately sucking up the hyoid in the photos. So he has gotten real results from Mewing, which might let him justify to himself the claim that Mewing is responsible for all his results (when in reality he has likely been doing additional procedures).

Also, let's talk about Jamo. Jamo started at 17 (I think) and his results were over 4 years, so that is more plausibly due to maturation. Also, Jamo's before photo is turned away from the camera, so it's harder to tell what happened.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 2:45 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: James

 

Also, let's talk about Jamo. Jamo started at 17 (I think) and his results were over 4 years, so that is more plausibly due to maturation. Also, Jamo's before photo is turned away from the camera, so it's harder to tell what happened.

If I recall right, the chin comparison was something like 7 months of progress. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 2:57 pm
Bison
New Member

If he did have something done it would have to be done in both progress pics. He would be insane to get work done if he's already getting results from mewing in progress pic 2. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 3:03 pm
Sailor87
Eminent Member

I thought the discussion between progress and abdul was pretty interesting! 

To the people here who dont believe bone remodeling by mewing in adults is possible, how do account for increased inter molar width? 

Or is that only possible by tipping of the teeth in your opinion? 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 4:38 pm
Odys and Arkey liked
ITZY_BITZY
Active Member

what would he lie tho??? heck why would he even post it in the first place if he doesn't want people to know he got surgery... 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 5:13 pm
Autokrator and Arkey liked
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: James

But another possibility is that he is on testosterone or HGH. These can affect jaw development.

I dont understand where this myth comes from and why people still believe this. Steroids do not make your bones grow. I know that because i have done steroids for 4 years without a break, and i have friends who have done steroids for even longer.

Even moderate doses of HGH (3-4iu) per day will not make your bones grow. Steroids do increase bone density but they do not make your mandible wider, and your skull bigger and they certainly do not add 2 inches to your chin.

Steroids can sometimes make your entire face look more robust and masculine, but thats not because of the bones.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 7:51 pm
ohwhatthehell
Eminent Member

I saw this post and was initially very impressed, with the first set of results, then extremely skeptical, with the second set of results. Has anyone considered the possibility that he really looks like he says he does now and that the BEFORE pics are photo shopped? People are only scrutinizing the after photo, which he easily debunked with a video. What if he just looked like that already and wanted to troll a bunch of incels and orthotropics people?

That being said, he's been posting on r/orthotropics about mewing technique for about 5 months, and his posts are consistent and not trolly. Maybe he's telling the truth. Either way, I am going to keep chugging along. He is not the reason I started mewing and won't be the reason that I quit.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 10:05 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Sailor87

I thought the discussion between progress and abdul was pretty interesting! 

To the people here who dont believe bone remodeling by mewing in adults is possible, how do account for increased inter molar width? 

Or is that only possible by tipping of the teeth in your opinion? 

Please tell me you liked my "jihad mewing" script, I need encouragement to create more content. Surly you want to learn about the 72 non-virgins you get from "jihad mewing".

By the way, as far as I know there is no one here that doesn't think bone remolding is not possible in adults. Views vary on the extent to which it happens and how it can be achieved.

In this particular case, nothing explains this persons chin growing on its own as much as you see in his progress pictures.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 10:25 pm
varbrah liked
Anomaly
Active Member

The fillers idea is a great one for individuals who just want cosmetic changes and also want to remain gaining these margíal-moderate and even great results form mewing overtime.  They can even do this until something very significant becomes more established than things are now (the post on this forum about the study on slow palatal and skeletal expansion taking place in courtesy of an expansion device is very promising already to me, as well as a few other random things that need further establishment for sure.)  2 mm in zygomatic arch expansion in about five months with slow  expansion which is said to be the best type of expansion.   If further studies are carried out on this and test subjects can continue to show similar results over the period of a year, I think that this can be something all of us should really look at. 

 

We all just have to keep at it regardless. If anybody wants to go for fillers in the meantime while mewing etc., definitely go for fillers that are hyaluronic acid based. You want fillers that will not identified as too foreign”to the body and you also better be willing to pay up for this type of treatment every four months at best if you were an active individual with a decent metabolism.  You can even go under the radar and keep on refilling gradually until you and your license professional can determine the perfect regimen for you to carry out with this protocol. You should however take great care of your skin if you’re going to be considering this as a nation because I can definitely see this aging you extremely fast if you go about it without care. You should take certain months off  every year and definitely care for your skin with things like a derma roller, some facial yoga or orofacial myology, some essential oil‘s and perhaps some other things. You should be fine if you take this extra step.

 

Anomaly   

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 11:16 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

@TGW my hero! thank you!!

@progress putting aside all the incorrect things you said about me I have a question for you. Since you speak of creative thinking, can anyone express their creativity without learning to speak first? Can anyone author a novel without knowing how to write first? Can anyone direct a movie without learning how to manage a film operation first? 

I think you know what I am hinting to. Before you can explore the cosmos like Galileo, you need to know how to operate the damn telescope. Otherwise that shining star you think you are looking at and nobody else sees might just turn out to be your neighbors dimmed bathroom light!

Applying this to the forum, many of you guys have jumped into creating your own form of "hard" mewing before even understanding proper mewing as advised by Mike Mew. This was in part by necessity as Mike's content was not clear. Plus he is not very responsive to the user base. But it’s no excuse for anyone to create medical advice from their imagination, especially when correct information becomes available.

Medical facts come way before anyone’s “creativity” including our friend, the subject of this topic, who is practicing mewing with such “religious” zealous he has actually gone beyond “hard mewing”. He as well start calling his method “Jihad Mewing”!

 

Now to ease the atmosphere I made a little creative story explaining “Jihad Mewing”

creative person 1: hey maaan, did you hear about “jihad mewing”???

creative person 2: wat dhat??

creative person 1: it’s the new way to look like a model!

creative person 2: how!?

creative person 1: just push with your tongue as hard as you can

creative person 2: where??

creative person 1: anywhere you want to grow your jaws, just push!  

creative person 2: I am pushing, but nothing is happening

creative person 1: well, you got to push harder! harder!

creative person 2: I am! so hard, I am bleeding!

creative person 1: f*** man, you don’t know what you are doing!

 

I hope you enjoyed my little creative story J

PS. One last thing, I used “trust me” in reference to my personal optimism about the subject.  

As-Salaam-Alaikum Brother,

Finally we have further evidence against the profligatory nature of the infidels on this forum. Inshallah, we will purge these infidels and their recessed maxillae, as it is known that only pig-eating kaffirs and cross-dressers have this trait. They are everything haraam in creation by Mike Mew - let us pray that he rids our internet community of such apostates.

Respectfully,
Ibn'Varbrah al-Asad

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 2:57 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: MSE Merchant

As-Salaam-Alaikum Brother,

Finally we have further evidence against the profligatory nature of the infidels on this forum. Inshallah, we will purge these infidels and their recessed maxillae, as it is known that only pig-eating kaffirs and cross-dressers have this trait. They are everything haraam in creation by Mike Mew - let us pray that he rids our internet community of such apostates.

Respectfully,
Ibn'Varbrah al-Asad

lol, by the way I am not making fun of any religious doctrine, I was just reflecting on the comments saying that guy put religious dedication into his mewing and was rewarded with such results.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 3:36 am
varbrah liked
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: MSE Merchant

As-Salaam-Alaikum Brother,

Finally we have further evidence against the profligatory nature of the infidels on this forum. Inshallah, we will purge these infidels and their recessed maxillae, as it is known that only pig-eating kaffirs and cross-dressers have this trait. They are everything haraam in creation by Mike Mew - let us pray that he rids our internet community of such apostates.

Respectfully,
Ibn'Varbrah al-Asad

lol, by the way I am not making fun of any religious doctrine, I was just reflecting on the comments saying that guy put religious dedication into his mewing and was rewarded with such results.

Jihad does mean ‘struggle’ so you are not wrong either way.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 3:53 am
Fknasymetries
Eminent Member
Posted by: MSE Merchant
Posted by: Abdulrahman

@TGW my hero! thank you!!

@progress putting aside all the incorrect things you said about me I have a question for you. Since you speak of creative thinking, can anyone express their creativity without learning to speak first? Can anyone author a novel without knowing how to write first? Can anyone direct a movie without learning how to manage a film operation first? 

I think you know what I am hinting to. Before you can explore the cosmos like Galileo, you need to know how to operate the damn telescope. Otherwise that shining star you think you are looking at and nobody else sees might just turn out to be your neighbors dimmed bathroom light!

Applying this to the forum, many of you guys have jumped into creating your own form of "hard" mewing before even understanding proper mewing as advised by Mike Mew. This was in part by necessity as Mike's content was not clear. Plus he is not very responsive to the user base. But it’s no excuse for anyone to create medical advice from their imagination, especially when correct information becomes available.

Medical facts come way before anyone’s “creativity” including our friend, the subject of this topic, who is practicing mewing with such “religious” zealous he has actually gone beyond “hard mewing”. He as well start calling his method “Jihad Mewing”!

 

Now to ease the atmosphere I made a little creative story explaining “Jihad Mewing”

creative person 1: hey maaan, did you hear about “jihad mewing”???

creative person 2: wat dhat??

creative person 1: it’s the new way to look like a model!

creative person 2: how!?

creative person 1: just push with your tongue as hard as you can

creative person 2: where??

creative person 1: anywhere you want to grow your jaws, just push!  

creative person 2: I am pushing, but nothing is happening

creative person 1: well, you got to push harder! harder!

creative person 2: I am! so hard, I am bleeding!

creative person 1: f*** man, you don’t know what you are doing!

 

I hope you enjoyed my little creative story J

PS. One last thing, I used “trust me” in reference to my personal optimism about the subject.  

As-Salaam-Alaikum Brother,

Finally we have further evidence against the profligatory nature of the infidels on this forum. Inshallah, we will purge these infidels and their recessed maxillae, as it is known that only pig-eating kaffirs and cross-dressers have this trait. They are everything haraam in creation by Mike Mew - let us pray that he rids our internet community of such apostates.

Respectfully,
Ibn'Varbrah al-Asad

Solid proof that MSE is the holy grail. Now that he can breathe better, that his brain is more oxygenated, his creativity went trough the roof and he provided us with this masterpiece.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 4:10 am
Sailor87
Eminent Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Sailor87

I thought the discussion between progress and abdul was pretty interesting! 

To the people here who dont believe bone remodeling by mewing in adults is possible, how do account for increased inter molar width? 

Or is that only possible by tipping of the teeth in your opinion? 

Please tell me you liked my "jihad mewing" script, I need encouragement to create more content. Surly you want to learn about the 72 non-virgins you get from "jihad mewing".

By the way, as far as I know there is no one here that doesn't think bone remolding is not possible in adults. Views vary on the extent to which it happens and how it can be achieved.

In this particular case, nothing explains this persons chin growing on its own as much as you see in his progress pictures.

Jihad mewing is a catchy term, and very fitting for what this guy might have been doing. I have experimented a little with pushing up until it burns under the jaw, and I can see how jihad mewing in this manner might create great results in a person is as dedicated as he describes himself to be. So who knows.. Maybe he did get surgery, maybe its real and he is just a very dedicated follower of the Prophet Mew and Jihad mews on levels never seen before? Maybe his jaw didnt grow much but just changed position further forwards? 

But if every day is a mewing jihad for you, all day long, who knows whats possible? I think im gonna try to follow the doctrine of the Prophet myself a little more, at least part time. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 2:22 pm
Arkey
Active Member

If ya overlap the two images of his start and his current, his chin really doesn't change much. What does change could be accounted for in the skin finding it's new home over his shifting bones.

His jaw changes position, and his head changes location in relation to his jaw, but I don't see any actual change in the bone itself - just how the bones are organised.

What's crazy when you look at it like this, is how bad his posture was initially, and how his whole head and neck looked like it was collapsing in on itself.

* Click the image to see it animated.

- Mewing for 6+ months
- IMW: 35mm (no expansion)
- Sleep on the floor without a pillow
- Tape mouth at night
- Continue to emphasise chin-tuck/occipital drive for extended periods
- Chew Mastic Tears for 1 hour every other day

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 2:38 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Sailor87

Jihad mewing is a catchy term, and very fitting for what this guy might have been doing. I have experimented a little with pushing up until it burns under the jaw, and I can see how jihad mewing in this manner might create great results in a person is as dedicated as he describes himself to be. So who knows.. Maybe he did get surgery, maybe its real and he is just a very dedicated follower of the Prophet Mew and Jihad mews on levels never seen before? Maybe his jaw didnt grow much but just changed position further forwards? 

But if every day is a mewing jihad for you, all day long, who knows whats possible? I think im gonna try to follow the doctrine of the Prophet myself a little more, at least part time. 

Yea, I made it in reference to on one hand crazy people that blow themselves up among civilians and expect to go to heaven and be rewarded with 72 virgins. On the other hand crazy people that push their tongue so hard and expect their face to look like a model. The joke is that they will get 72 none-virgins.

On a related note, "jihad mewing" is against the teachings of so called "prophet mew".  It goes against his teachings of gentle sub conscious mewing. According to him one must fully tame the tongue before achieving results, but some have taken his gentle peace loving message and corrupted it with savage violent dogma. Those can only be described as heretics and their act as blasphemy. They will be punished with having their maxillas completely and permanently removed to serve as warning to others!

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 3:43 pm
Recott liked
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Arkey

If ya overlap the two images of his start and his current, his chin really doesn't change much. What does change could be accounted for in the skin finding it's new home over his shifting bones.

His jaw changes position, and his head changes location in relation to his jaw, but I don't see any actual change in the bone itself - just how the bones are organised.

What's crazy when you look at it like this, is how bad his posture was initially, and how his whole head and neck looked like it was collapsing in on itself.

* Click the image to see it animated.

You are arriving at an interesting question: is it more the jaws that swing forward, or the cranium that swings upward? Overlaying the pics in your way gives the impression that it's not just the maxilla, but the whole skull that had been collapsing under its own weight. It's as if the mandible largely remained in its proper positioning in relation to the rest of the body, while everything else moved. Which makes sense when you take in account how much higher priority the subconscious postural processes give to the airway than anatomically perfect posture. When oral posture fails, even though the rest of the head is sinking down, the mandible is still automatically kept away from the airway, resulting in head forward posture. 

So perhaps it would be more proper to view the jaw as a lever for the postural support of the cranial base, rather than the other way around. Fixing tongue posture would then allow the upper cranium to "climb up" into its proper configuration. Should we first strive to rotate the head upward so that the palate is properly positioned in a horizontally neutral alignment, and only then focus on pushing upward with the tongue? I can only say for sure that in my own case it has not necessarily been beneficial to perform the  chin tuck so that the palate ends up being curved downward.  

This was one of the earliest comparison pics I remember seeing. I noticed that like OP, he also acquired the habit of tilting his head slightly upwards:

When I first had this idea a few months ago, I experimented with photoshopping a bunch of sideprofiles by only rotating the upper cranium, instead of the jaws. Even with a single rough cut&move, this seemed to result in more "convenient" structural fixes than painstakingly trying to rotate the jaws and the nose forward:

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 4:08 pm
Adam liked
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

On a related note, "jihad mewing" is against the teachings of so called "prophet mew".  It goes against his teachings of gentle sub conscious mewing. According to him one must fully tame the tongue before achieving results, but some have taken his gentle peace loving message and corrupted it with savage violent dogma. Those can only be described as heretics and their act as blasphemy. They will be punished with having their maxillas completely and permanently removed to serve as warning to others!

My Friend,

Astaghfirullah - you confuse the community with your anachronisms and corruption of the pillars set forth by our Prophet (pbuh). It is said in 'The Cure and Cause of Malocclusion' by Prof. John Mew that when his only son, Mike Mew was in Mecca - Al-hamdu-lilah - he first learned of the gentle forces. Following this, his Hijra to Medina, where he was given the revelation of Jihad-mewing.

Do not spread such falsehoods again.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 4:25 pm
Arkey
Active Member

@Progress, it was this post with your photoshops that has made me look at the skull in this way - at least I would try photoshopping the jaw and nose (up to the bend in ones nose, the end in the bone and beginning of cartilage), and bring it up in the opposite manner to the above 'shops.

I found that if you reverse it on people with forward grown faces, the new composition shows off all the classic mouth breather characteristics.

He seems to really press on his opinion of the importance of chin tucks on his reddit post. Going so far as to use his finger to push his chin into a more extreme tuck.

If this is credible progress, which I believe it is, then I reckon it's worth bearing in mind his way of hard mewing with a focus on the hyoid, and chin tucks. Worth noting as well, Jamo's mention of the chin tuck initiating the hard mew - as I try to mew in the vein of this guy, I find as I straighten my back and head (or bring my occiput away from my tailbone, as has been mentioned before) my tongue really raises up, and I feel a warm pressure that feels pretty tiring to maintain. Perhaps this is the tongue pressing on the sphenoid?

This is what I imagine is what both Jamo and this fella have excelled in staying consistent, and where their "incel" roots have maybe helped them stay determined, because it's bloody exhausting to keep it up for long! 

- Mewing for 6+ months
- IMW: 35mm (no expansion)
- Sleep on the floor without a pillow
- Tape mouth at night
- Continue to emphasise chin-tuck/occipital drive for extended periods
- Chew Mastic Tears for 1 hour every other day

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 5:15 pm
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

Hi everyone! I am the guy from the reddit post. Why do you think my results are fake? I’ll try to prove it. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 8:37 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

yo, dude. :]

do you reckon hard mewing directly speeds up the rate of bone change as a result of higher pressure or do you think that hard-mewers are more likely to keep their tongues up for longer and also have stronger tongues which would result in more consistent contact leading to better results?

when pushing up the tongue root hard, most people can't nasally breathe. how long did it take you because you could push up with the back of the tongue and breathe? does the force of raising the hyoid expand the airway?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 9:46 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Arkey

If ya overlap the two images of his start and his current, his chin really doesn't change much. What does change could be accounted for in the skin finding it's new home over his shifting bones.

His jaw changes position, and his head changes location in relation to his jaw, but I don't see any actual change in the bone itself - just how the bones are organised.

What's crazy when you look at it like this, is how bad his posture was initially, and how his whole head and neck looked like it was collapsing in on itself.

* Click the image to see it animated.

You can overlap images using different anchor points to show different effects. One will make the chin appear more prominent while the other less so.  To avoid this conflict you can plot fixed landmarks on both pictures and watch how they change in relation to each other.

There are standard points in photometric analysis as shown in the picture below. When looking at the chin the key point is "Pg". The further forward this point is in relation to "Li, Ls, Sn, Pn" the more the chin is said to project.

Applying those points to the pictures in question (click on it to enlarge) you can see none of them have changed in relation to each other expect "Pg".

How is this possible? "Pg" can only project more in two ways:

First way, the whole lower jaw moves taking the "Pg" point with it forward. In this case the lower lip "Li" will also move forward relative to the upper lip "Ls", but none of that happened. The lower and upper lips are pretty much the same in relation (minus the difference of being closed and opened).

Second way, the lower teeth are brought backward. In this case the lower lip "Li" will move backward in relation to the upper lip "Ls". Unless there is a big gap or some missing teeth behind the lower incisors this option is not possible because lower teeth destilization is very hard and takes very long to provide few mm of results when it works. Plus his mentolabial angle would change if that was possible and this is not evident here.

It's clear the "Pg" point is forward because something local pushed it forward. Meaning something expanded behind the "Pg" point similar to the effect of cosmetic procedures.  

I think this case is confusing to some well intending people because it combines changes that appear clearly real while others clearly fake. As I pointed out before, there is nothing stopping a person from correcting their forward head posture for example and then getting a filler procedure.  
 
At any rate if someone wants to to trick the "mewing community" they really can and no one would be able to definitively prove it. This is eventually going to happen as tricksters/scammers/attention seekers keep learning from their mistakes. Besides anyone could have posted surgery transformation I shared earlier and claim it's facial upswing and hardly anyone would be able to argue with that, except maybe to point at the nose.

That's why you should not take claims of facial changes like this from anyone on the net unless it can be verified by independent professionals. And the reality is no professional is going to verify anything from the poor records that "mewers" typically keep as in this case.

That's why I pointed out that Mike Mew really dropped the ball when he did not take charge of his adult mewing concept and let it drift in some of the worst corners of the web.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 1:06 am
Sceriff and varbrah liked
Slinky
Trusted Member
Posted by: Helmutstrebl

Hi everyone! I am the guy from the reddit post. Why do you think my results are fake? I’ll try to prove it. 

the main reason is your chin. If you do have some solid proof please post; will provide concrete evidence mewing does work for adults or at least some upswing is achievable 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 1:47 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Slinky

the main reason is your chin. If you do have some solid proof please post; will provide concrete evidence mewing does work for adults or at least some upswing is achievable 

I would like to point out that I find the whole thing with the nose hump disappearing and face stretching forward very questionable, but it's the chin that unquestionably stands out as dubious.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 1:58 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Here is a lady who had a quick 20 minutes nose job with fillers. 

And here is a picture showing the type of subtle changes that can be achieved with fillers in the nose and chin.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 2:54 am
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

@krollic

I think both. Hard mewing speeds up the mewing process and hard mewers tend to keep the their tongue up longer. For example when u hard mew all day its easier for u to aoft mew during the night, your tongue will automatically be up there. 

 

At first i used to stop breathing and mew hard af for 20 seconds, catch a breathe, do it again. When i kept doing it i was able to slowly push up with the very back third of my tongue, i can push up even on the soft palate now without any breathing problems so i guess my airway expanded. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 3:58 am
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

@abdulrahman

Hey man u said its impossible for the chin to move forwards like that and its true i agree but chin isn’t all bone, my chin has a lot of soft tissue in that area maybe thats why it protrudes more.

Look at my friend’s chin, it looks even more protruding from the side profile. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 4:00 am
krollic
Reputable Member

did you ever have a torus palatinus on the roof of your palate? if so, do you think that has impacted your progress and has it gotten smaller over time?

how much has your inter molar width expanded?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 4:39 am
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

@pame 

Chin tuck played crucial role in my facial development. It strengthened my neck muscles and helped me push up with even the most back third part of my tongue. Sometimes i chin tuck 4-5 hours a day. I don’t do repetitions instead i just keep my head in chin tuck position and keep it there.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 5:11 am
Bison
New Member

Hi, when you chin tuck while mewing do you apply even more force or leave it at rest position? I love that you open to prove your results and thanks for joining the forum.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 6:12 am
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

@bison

I apply even more force on the palate in chin tuck position. 

I cam here because i got a message from a guy on reddit he said you have been exposed of frauding lol and sent me this link so here i am. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 6:29 am
skinnyboiii
Active Member

@abdulrahman Having read through the thread, none of your examples with fillers and cartilage address one critical issue: his entire cranium changed shape, not just his face.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 7:48 am
Arkey liked
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@helmutstrebl How big of a role do you think the chin chin tucks played in your progress? Do you think its best to chin tuck all day? Doesen't that cause very stiff neck muscles over time?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 7:56 am
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

heres another pic, is my chin really that projected that it looks like a filler?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 8:10 am
Arkey liked
Helmutstrebl
Active Member

@pame 

chin tucks played crucial role in my facial development. It allowed me to engage the posterior third of my tongue up against the roof easily. It also strengthened my neck muscles. And i haven’t got stiff neck from muscles from it even thou i do it 4-5 hours everyday. 

It is also worth mentioning that i don’t do chin tucks repetitions i just push my chin towards my neck and keep it there

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 8:13 am
Bison
New Member

That pic in particular shows incredible transformation. At what month did you start to see some changes when you started.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2019 8:21 am
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