Notifications
Clear all

NOTICE:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

DNA Appliance Thread  

Page 3 / 3
  RSS
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@mr-sand-man123

The shape of my lower jaw has changed so much that the lower appliance no longer fits. It hurts to wear. 

I need to send it back for a new one, but with covid shutdowns, that hasn’t happened yet. 

They require sending both back together, so it means being without my upper device for at least four weeks, while they make a new set. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2020 2:53 am
mr-sand-man123
Active Member

@thomas22

Interesting. Were you expanding the bottom? Or was it just changing naturally?

I just sent my upper appliance in to modify it into an mRNA. I’m going to be without it for about 4 weeks but my sleep has been so bad that I’m just doing it. I originally just got the upper appliance because I thought that would be enough, but my jaw drops down and back quite a bit when I sleep, which seems to squish my soft palate and cause snoring or some kind of resistance, and my sleep is really bad, even with CPAP, so I’m hoping the lower appliance will help keep my jaw locked in place and forward enough to prevent that resistance.

I believe it’s supposed to function like a mandibular advancement device so I hope that helps my UARS. I’m currently waking up several times per night which I think is from this resistance. So hearing you say the mRNA prevented your snoring sounds promising for me. I’m trying not to get my hopes up too much but I think it should help in some way if it holds my jaw forward a bit. Because right now when I try to simulate my relaxed sleep-breathing, I can quite easily feel resistance and make a snoring noise, but if I hold my jaw in place or forward, it’s much more difficult to feel that resistance or make a snoring noise.

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2020 5:09 pm
Thomas22 liked
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I would have to ask my doctor for the records, but I believe it cut my score from the middle twenties to something around ten. 

I started experiencing dreams, immediately, if I remember correctly. 

Looking at my Snore Lab results, I have seen improvement over the last two months. Snoring is almost gone. So I do think you’re right, and that eventually the upper device would resolve the issue, but it could take six or seven months. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2020 6:19 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@thomas22

awesome. Can you describe the lower jaw changes please? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2020 6:37 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@robbie343

I couldn’t tell you, I have a thick beard. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2020 10:07 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @mr-sand-man123

Were you expanding the bottom? Or was it just changing naturally?

Here’s my logic. 

If the device had become painful to wear, either the jaw or the device has changed shape, and it can’t be the device. Because the device doesn’t change shape.

So it must be the jaw.

I assume it’s the growth of the maxilla, and the lower jaw moving forward. Because if the device was the primary mover, wouldn’t the jaw simply mold itself to the shape of the plastic?

 If I remember correctly though, the plaster cast of my jaw, the lower left side looked like an flat tire - deflated. And that was why I had an open bite. 

That is no longer true, my teeth touch on that side. 

So perhaps that’s the big change. I truly can’t tell, because of my beard. It’s going to be strange looking at myself when I shave it off after treatment 🤔 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/07/2020 10:52 pm
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @thomas22

- I'd like to see my antegonial notch disappear. How much remodeling is possible?

Is that ... actually a thing that potentially could happen?  I have not heard of that before.  In fact, I didn't even know what an antegonial notch was until you mentioned it, but yeah - I have them too, I can feel them.  One more thing to be frustrated about how childhood orthodontics destroyed my face.

You also said this in an earlier post which caught my attention:  "The doctor said that he normally sees condyle repair as treatment progresses, but he's never seen complete recovery."

That's pretty amazing if both the condyles and the antegonial notch end up with some amount of repair because of the process.  Do you have any more details on either of these potential outcomes above and beyond what you've posted?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/07/2020 9:43 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member

 

 

@toomer

 Dr. Singh and Dr. Belfor are both very careful and limited in their claims. 

 Belfor says the Homeoblock will help you reach you genetic potential. 

 Singh sells it as sleep apnea device, of course, but notes that it will improve facial symmetry. 

This photo illustrates how some people make only limited progress. 

http://facialdevelopment.blogspot.com/2011/07/alternative-treatment-to-leforte.html?m=1

If you look at this patient, you still see dramatic asymmetries  

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/07/2020 10:45 am
Owp99
New Member

Since a few of us on the thread are currently using the DNA appliance with the Y-plate, I’m curious as to whether or not people are expanding forward as well as laterally. I’ve been reading that the supposed “forward expansion” cause by the Y-plate just pushes the teeth out of the maxilla and makes them flare outwards. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? Before starting the appliance, I already had a small diastema and flaring of my two front upper teeth - I’m wondering if attempting to expand forward would make the problem worse. What are you guys doing? Are you only expanding laterally?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/07/2020 12:42 pm
toomer
Trusted Member

@owp99

So I'm not in DNA yet ... but it is my understanding that the acrylic plate isn't typically making contact with the body 24x7 ... that there's a small gap/space between the two.  And then when you swallow, the entire appliance is pressed up against the roof of the mouth, creates a little bit of suction on the suture in doing so, and the axial springs apply a little bit more force, and then release when the swallow is done.

Basically a "prosthetic tongue" (as I have started to call it).

The axial springs should - as far as I've interpreted - be generally applying the minimal amount of force possible to just sort of hold their place, until a swallow action occurs. Then, there's intermittent force as they press briefly and release again.

Even with a protocol like AGGA, and a case like Ronald Ead's which didn't work out so well ... he got 9mm of forward expansion on one side from what I understood.  There are not 9mm of alveolar bone in front of any teeth ... probably only 1-2mm.  So if even the AGGA was only pushing the teeth out of the maxilla, within a couple months his teeth would have been in his gums, and then on the floor shortly there afterward.

(one possible theory with Ronald is that he tried to push too far, past his genetic potential ... so if maybe he had stopped after 6-7mm he would have come out ok)

I believe I have had flaring of my lower front incisors due to tongue thrust while sleeping once I started on CPAP.  It's a documented side effect that happens sometimes - so flaring can occur with or without an appliance.  The question is whether the angle can be corrected later ... either through the body uprighting the teeth into their proper position naturally as the arch grows (this seems to be Dr. Singh and Dr. Befor's theory) or perhaps through traditional orthodontics (i.e.: inflammatory movement) later.

Want to see some huge flaring, brought under control afterwards via orthodontics?  Check out the mid-treatment photo for this patient (class III skeletal malocclusion, corrected non-surgically with an appliance-centered strategy): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3700158/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/07/2020 12:50 pm
Owp99 liked
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@owp99

 The devices work.

 They don’t cause “flaring.”

 It you chose not to expand forward, as Vivos intended, you wouldn’t correct your skeletal dystrophy, and you might end up looking strange. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/07/2020 1:45 pm
Owp99 liked
Owp99
New Member

@thomas22 @toomer

I appreciate both of your responses! I’ll be honest, as interested as I am in all of this stuff, I am not super knowledgeable about it, which is why I ask these questions. Both of your answers are reassuring and I really do appreciate it. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/07/2020 2:55 pm
toomer
Trusted Member

Adding this into the discussion, because I found this interesting and somewhat encouraging for the condyles -- 

https://head-face-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-160X-5-15

In the TMJ report that my DNA provider wrote up for my case, he noted "moderate to severe degeneration" ... which really sent me into an emotional tailspin when I read that part of my report.  Unfortunately, my provider - despite having spent a couple decades in this space and being an early believer in DNA - doesn't have a great bedside manner or really explain a lot of stuff in detail.

I had assumed the degeneration of my condyles was likely permanent.  But it seems like that might not be the case.  Here's one of the reasons theorized in that paper:

"Mandibular condylar cartilage is characterised histologically as fibrocartilage containing a layer of pre-chondroblastic mesenchymal stem cells which can undergo rapid differentiation into chondrocytes."

In other words (as I read it), the cartilage in the TMJ seems like it behaves a little bit differently than cartilage in other places of the body ... and it can actually help regenerate the condyles.  And in the patient presented, they seem to be confirming that via the radiographs.  Maybe not 100% back to what they were, but hopefully good enough to function well.  So it was encouraging to read that and I just wanted to add that into the discussion.  

Interestingly enough, the strategy documented in this patient case is basically what my provider is making me do right now - an occlusal splint across the entire (lower) arch, which we grind and adjust every 4 weeks.  This has leveled out my bite left-to-right (I was imbalanced, didn't realize I was mostly chewing on one side) and also dropped my mandible closer to what I think is the correct gonial angle for my jaw.  These are the things that I can see, but now I'm a bit happier having read this knowing that maybe we're rebuilding my condyles first before starting the DNA part of the process.

And this might be part of why my bite splint process is taking so long, he wants the condyles to remodel as much as they can on their own before starting the next phase ... so any movement he's seeing in the jaw position he might be attributing to change in the condyles.

Anyway, thanks for tipping us off about your provider telling you that, Thomas!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/07/2020 4:02 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I have a guess as to why my lower appliance became painful. 

The left most spring is set lower than any of the other springs. 

I would like to believe that as my open bite closed, the relative position of the spring to to the tooth shifted. 

And now it’s too low, and in the wrong place. 

It’s all a guess though. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2020 4:01 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

My lower appliance.

Fully contracted, and fully expanded. When you expand it too far, the halves separate. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/07/2020 10:09 pm
eternally12
Active Member

As I did not have a lower appliance, as my lower jaw has come forward I have developed a pretty steep open bite where my back molars are. But I believe this will be resolved with braces after treatment with the upper appliance has concluded so I'm not too fussed. But I do wonder what it would have been like if I had the lower appliance as well.

Currently my provider has put a wire in the key hole of the lateral expansion on the Y-plate so for the past month I have only been able to turn the forward expander (sort of like the AGGA appliance). He has decided to do this until my lower jaw moves forward to become more stable. I actually didn't think this was something ever done with the DNA appliance until he did it for my case. I hope to start expanding laterally again in a few days though when I see him, but we are also concerned about the cant in my jaw which is causing one side to expand more than the other side (and unfortunately it is not the recessed side). Unfortunately the cant was caused by a second round of braces which were put on a few years ago only on my top teeth by my old orthodontist in an attempt to close the bite. We intend to to correct the cant once enough expansion has been achieved.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/08/2020 2:09 am
vt1
 vt1
New Member

@toomer

Are you sure your current path forward is wise? Your dentist, moving you to an open bite and underbite (!), does not seem to be proceeding with logic or wisdom, and contrary to the common sense of upper jaw expansion -> lower jaw following along.

I think you are being led along by people with their own shortsighted views, instead of doing for yourself what you know is correct, based on your reading of this forum.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/08/2020 12:29 pm
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @vt1

@toomer

Are you sure your current path forward is wise? Your dentist, moving you to an open bite and underbite (!), does not seem to be proceeding with logic or wisdom, and contrary to the common sense of upper jaw expansion -> lower jaw following along.

Thanks for your concern.  I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't a little bit concerned ... but anything being done right now could be reversed if needed.  It would take some time - couldn't do it overnight - but none of the changes would be really permanent.

However, per the link I posted above - I am hopefully getting actual rebuilding of my TMJ condyles because of what we're doing.

And there's hopefully also a certain logic to it ... in terms of having the mandible tell us where it wants to rest if given a choice ... and then figuring out how much we will need to expand or bring the maxilla forward to accommodate it.  Every month when we re-check my occlusion, the mandible is moving less and less between visits.  It's slowing down, it seems to be finding its ideal preferred resting place overall - which seems about 3mm forward from where it was (my regular cleaning dentist told me that's how much he thought it had come forward).  Getting 3mm forward movement/expansion of the maxilla definitely seems to be in the realm of possibilities for what Vivos DNA patients typically experience - that would eliminate my temporary (hopefully) underbite, and hopefully eventually bring occlusion back to the rear molars, once the maxilla is less vaulted.

Vivos providers do treat many (but not necessarily all) patients by targeting the maxilla first, and what they find in some patient cases is that the mandible sometimes ends up coming forwards on its own with no specific treatment applied to it.  Vivos themselves is clear that that doesn't always happen - more often, if it's a case where "the mandible is trapped behind the maxilla" for the patient.  But in my case, we're taking it from the reverse angle given how retruded my lower jaw apparently was, in order to get pressure off of the TMJs and let the condyles remodel.

I've spoken directly with patients here and elsewhere, that have had open bites corrected by Vivos - both posterior and anterior.  Watching this appliance close up an anterior open bite for an adult patient, is pretty amazing to see.

I think you are being led along by people with their own shortsighted views, instead of doing for yourself what you know is correct, based on your reading of this forum.

I think you might be making a few to many assumptions about my history, and what I have vs. have not considered and analyzed over the last 7 months, and how much weight I do or don't give to posts in this forum.   There's no way for me to know 100% for sure - all of this stuff is way out there in terms of medical/dental technology.  But trust me when I tell you, I have spent a lot of time researching this stuff ... and I don't believe I am currently on a path that is likely to lead to permanent long-term impairment or damage.  But for this exact moment, yes - I'm functionally a little bit worse off.  Hopefully that starts changing for me once we hit phase #2 soon.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/08/2020 12:15 pm
vt1
 vt1
New Member

@toomer

My point is that what you're paying him for, you should be able to do yourself. If you look at many crossbited or small upper palate people, their lower teeth are inwardly tipped, for example, which shows that there's potential for correction in the lower jaw without any extra work, provided the upper jaw is modelled correctly.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/08/2020 10:50 am
cassavafiend
Active Member

@mr-sand-man123

 

Any chance the Vivos provider that's helping you out is in Ontario (Oakville or Richmond Hill to be more specific). I have my first consults next week with one of the only Vivos providers in the province.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/08/2020 8:38 pm
cassavafiend
Active Member
Posted by: @thomas22

Six Month Update

 

 - My posture is fixed. I stand upright.

 - I can always breath through both nostrils. They still feel slightly constricted though.

 - My open bite closed.

 - I've developed a gap between my two front teeth.

 - Nasiolabial folds are reduced.

 

What's Next?

 

 - I'd love to see more symmetry in my face. Especially between my eyes, and my cheekbones.

 - I'd like to see my antegonial notch disappear. How much remodeling is possible?

 - A better sense of smell.

 - Easier breathing (which I'm sure will happen)

How big would you say is the diastema now after around 6-7 months of the DNA appliance? Much like Toomer, I work in an industry where appearance matters quite a bit (along with not having speech impared) and want to know how bad the diastema will get. It obviously won't be as bad as a palatal expander but a general idea would be great!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/08/2020 9:33 pm
JordanR
Active Member

Interested in why you think expanding the maxilla will release a trapped mandible.

I have a trapped mandible after getting braces as an adult. Wondering how lateral expansion would allow forward movement of the maxilla?

Not saying it won't - I'm still discovering all the aspects of this stuff.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/08/2020 11:48 pm
mr-sand-man123
Active Member

@cassavafiend My provider is in Alberta.

 

And to answer your question about the diastema....I'm pretty sure there is almost no noticeable gap in people who use Vivos appliances. I've never seen one big enough to be noticeable. The expansion is so gradual, and doesn't create the same kind of forceful rapid expansion as things like MSE or SARPE.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/09/2020 12:07 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Estimable Member

@Thomas22 thank you for creating this thread and sharing your experience.  I'm considering doing DNA.

My consultations have said that I have a decent back of the palate but a narrow front of the palate.  Do you think it's still worth it?

They also said they'd like to use it to bring my face forward.  Have you experienced anything in this regard?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/09/2020 10:05 pm
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @mr-sand-man123

@cassavafiend My provider is in Alberta.

 

And to answer your question about the diastema....I'm pretty sure there is almost no noticeable gap in people who use Vivos appliances. I've never seen one big enough to be noticeable. The expansion is so gradual, and doesn't create the same kind of forceful rapid expansion as things like MSE or SARPE.

There's also the possibility that providers use the axial springs to conduct a bit of orthodontic movement of individual teeth, so they're effectively "closing up" any diastema at the same time it's forming.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/09/2020 10:55 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@cassavafiend

I could fit a paper clip between my two front teeth. 

My upper lip covers my teeth so it’s not noticeable to other people. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/09/2020 7:38 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@drunkwithcoffee

 As I’ve said above, the changes are so gradual you don’t notice them in the moment. 

 I won’t be able to answer question until I’ve completed treatment. 

 My sleeping has improved though, and my snoring has subsided (even when I don’t wear the device). My posture is also much better.

 My teeth positioning is also much more symmetrical.

 I hope the device will resolve the asymmetries in my face, but we’ll see.

I finally sent my device in for repair and it’s going to be two months before I get it back. So that’s means I’ll complete treatment sometime around March of 2022  

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/09/2020 7:49 pm
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @thomas22

@drunkwithcoffee

 As I’ve said above, the changes are so gradual you don’t notice them in the moment. 

 I won’t be able to answer question until I’ve completed treatment. 

 My sleeping has improved though, and my snoring has subsided (even when I don’t wear the device). My posture is also much better.

 My teeth positioning is also much more symmetrical.

 I hope the device will resolve the asymmetries in my face, but we’ll see.

I finally sent my device in for repair and it’s going to be two months before I get it back. So that’s means I’ll complete treatment sometime around March of 2022  

 

Do they give you any sort of a retainer to wear at night while you're waiting, in order to prevent any degree of relapse?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2020 5:28 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@toomer

 They made me one, but it didn’t fit, and I couldn’t wait for them to make a second one. 

 I have the perception that my bite is very stable though. I don’t think my bite has shrunk at all. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2020 9:23 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I’m still waiting on my appliance to come back, but my provider did send me the airway intelligence report they created back in December of 2020. 

It’s a series of scans showing skeletal and airway measurements, packaged up for patients to read. It helps you understand what’s wrong, and what Vivos hopes to treat. 

- I have a counter clockwise rotation in growth. And a vertical growth deficiency. 

 My face isn’t too long, which you see talked about, but too short. 

- I have noticeable asymmetries, including a midline palate shift, and a deviated septum.

- My left nasal passages are 55% smaller. 

- I have a class I malocclusion “with type III tendencies”

- I have a “Deep Bite”. As is common with this, my upper lip covers my upper teeth completely when I smile. 

The report includes a profile scan, that shows both the bone, and the soft tissue. The skeletal structure looks too small for my face, and looks retruded.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2020 10:39 am
drunkwithcoffee
Estimable Member

After consulting with two DNA-approved dentists, I've decided to get a frenectomy before thinking about getting DNA.  Even if I got the DNA, I feel like it would be wasted progress if I don't enable optimal tongue posture.  

Also, after seeing Michale Chatham's insane 2-year results achieved with just a tongue tie, chiropractor and lots of myofunctional therapy (scroll down for pics: https://www.michalechatham.com/blog/celebrating-two-years-migraine-free ), I wonder if everything you need *can* be achieved with the tongue after all.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/09/2020 1:24 pm
eternally12
Active Member

@drunkwithcoffee

The link you posted didn't work for me.

 

Just an update on my progress:

I didn't realise that the maximum forward expansion on the appliance was only about 5mm before you need to get a new one. Has anyone else had this experience? Mine fell off because it expanded too far in the forward direction, but my provider seems to think any further expansion should just be an adjustment orthodontically rather than with another DNA appliance. So for now, I have stopped turning any of the screws for over a month now and am getting new impressions next week before we decide on the next course of action (ie. either braces or another appliance). Either way I will need orthodontic work done as my bite was already off from prior orthodontic work when I started the treatment.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/09/2020 3:36 am
WHCCARDIO
Active Member

@drunkwithcoffee That link is 404'd. You got a mirror?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/09/2020 10:57 am
Progress
Member Moderator

@eternally12

@whccardio

Works now, the parentheses had to be separated from the url.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/09/2020 11:30 am
WHCCARDIO liked
drunkwithcoffee
Estimable Member

@progress thanks! Also of note, I believe Michale has dropped in to this forum before (can't find the thread now) where she has said her results came from a passive suction in the posterior palate.  Wonder if the fact that she's achieved such drastic changes as an adult puts the hard mewing vs. suction debate to rest.

But that's a topic for another thread.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/09/2020 5:14 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

My provider wrote a bad prescription, and it will be another two months before I get my appliance back.

So I’ll be without any appliance for four months in total on this warranty claim. 

Despite the fact I’m not wearing an appliance, and haven’t for two months now, my snoring has stopped. There’s been a linear improvement charting back to last winter, according to the SnoreLab app. 

I only wore the upper for seven and a half months in total. And the lower for three months before it stopped fitting.

So what’s happening? Why has my sleep continue to improve?

 

I believe it’s the change in my oral posture. I keep my tongue resting at the top of my mouth now.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/09/2020 2:09 pm
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee
 
she has said her results came from a passive suction in the posterior palate. 

Kind of hard to do for some of us, if our entire upper arch form has collapsed inward, and we can't even get our tongues flat on the roof of our mouths.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/09/2020 9:08 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

My new appliance is finished and I'll have it by the end of the month. That's about a three month turnaround.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/10/2020 5:21 pm
toomer liked
eternally12
Active Member

I've finished with the DNA appliance about two months now and interestingly my practitioner and I decided to do controlled arch braces to close up the gaps. I know CAB is normally done after AGGA, but I didn't want to risk losing any expansion and I needed braces anyway to close an anterior open bite from previous orthodontics. I've just had my band fittings today!

I am concerned about further orthodontic work as this will be my fourth time, but I have a good feeling this will be the last time. My provider seems very careful in addressing all my concerns and he is accommodating and open to suggestions. Surprisingly my roots are still pretty good on all teeth except one of the lower premolars, but he says we will take an x-ray again in 6 months (halfway through braces treatment) to see if there is any further resorption. And if so, we will take the bracket off that particular tooth. I'm pretty happy with that approach for now.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/10/2020 2:28 am
toomer
Trusted Member

@eternally12

Glad to hear you're hitting the final stages.  Post-DNA orthodontics is not all that unusual.  Whether it's done with Invisalign, brackets, or I guess CAB ... all depends on the patient case as well as preference.  But it's pretty normal - I met with Dr. Liao a couple weeks ago and he indicated that usually they do post-DNA orthodontics on about 50% of cases.

How long were in you in DNA total, and what would you say is different now for you compared to when you started?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/10/2020 11:34 am
Owp99
New Member

Not that anyone cares about my progress, but just for the sake of reference for anyone considering the DNA appliance, I’d like to share it. 

I am four months in now, and I can definitively say that the DNA appliance does what it claims to do. My upper and lower jaws have expanded significantly. Before I started the appliance, only six teeth of my upper jaw were present in photos. Now, eight are visible, and two more are on their way. My face has certainly widened a bit as well, which is good, because before I started I had a pretty narrow face. My breathing has also improved exponentially. I used to get constantly stuffed up at night time, since starting the appliance, I have not gotten stuffed up once. 

I am definitely very pleased with the progress I’ve made so far - I believe I started at 34 mm IMW and this would put me around 38 currently. After this appliance maxes out at 6 mm of expansion and puts me at roughly 40 mm IMW, I’m not sure if I will continue on or not, but either way, it has been a great success. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/10/2020 5:15 pm
toomer liked
az_77
New Member

@owp99 where specifically did your face widen? cheekbones, lower jaw, and are your lips any wider?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/10/2020 3:04 pm
aleksandr444200
New Member
Posted by: @owp99

Not that anyone cares about my progress, but just for the sake of reference for anyone considering the DNA appliance, I’d like to share it. 

I am four months in now, and I can definitively say that the DNA appliance does what it claims to do. My upper and lower jaws have expanded significantly. Before I started the appliance, only six teeth of my upper jaw were present in photos. Now, eight are visible, and two more are on their way. My face has certainly widened a bit as well, which is good, because before I started I had a pretty narrow face. My breathing has also improved exponentially. I used to get constantly stuffed up at night time, since starting the appliance, I have not gotten stuffed up once. 

I am definitely very pleased with the progress I’ve made so far - I believe I started at 34 mm IMW and this would put me around 38 currently. After this appliance maxes out at 6 mm of expansion and puts me at roughly 40 mm IMW, I’m not sure if I will continue on or not, but either way, it has been a great success. 

I care 😀 , congrats thats awesome! I'll be getting one soon too, my face also needs to widen. Are you just widening or pushing forward too? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/10/2020 4:16 pm
Owp99 liked
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @owp99

Before I started the appliance, only six teeth of my upper jaw were present in photos. Now, eight are visible, and two more are on their way.

This is me exactly.  I can look at photos of me from a decade ago, and I had the "10-tooth smile", but at some point over the last 10 years the arch collapsed ... vaulted ... and now I say I'm a "6.5-tooth smile".  Looking forward to getting mine hopefully in the next month or two.

Thanks for sharing your amazing results!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/10/2020 10:24 pm
Owp99 liked
Owp99
New Member

I haven’t been expanding the appliance forward, only laterally. I started expanding it forward in the beginning, but it seemed to be making my slight overbite more pronounced, so I stopped.

Az, it is hard for me to pinpoint exactly where my face has widened, but I’d say it’s mainly in my jaw for sure. My cheekbones might be a little more pronounced too. I haven’t seen much forward growth (which might be because of my unwillingness to expand the appliance forward), but I think I will start to see that when I am able to consistently mew.

Before I began the appliance I couldn’t mew at all without restricting my breathing ability completely, now I can do it, but only for very short bursts of time before my tongue is exhausted. I am going to get a frenectomy which should help with my tongue mobility. 

I view it all as a multi step process really that might take a few years (or more) to see some serious results, but I’m ok with that! So far I’ve been really encouraged by the progress I’ve made and I can definitively say the DNA appliance does what it claims to do if anyone is on the fence about it. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2020 1:12 am
toomer
Trusted Member

@owp99 You will get a bit of forward growth from lateral expansion.  I’ve seen this in a medical journal report once, and recently heard a patient consult from Dr. Zaghi that confirmed this as well.  Your body has to create a little bit of forward expansion as you get lateral, in order to try to maintain the “arch” shape.

I think I had read that it might be something like for every 4mm of lateral expansion, you might get about 1mm of forward growth ... but don’t quote me on that.  Next time I come across that data, I’ll be sure to write it down this time.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2020 9:14 am
eternally12
Active Member

@toomer

I didn't realise Dr Liao was your provider.

Yes in the end I decided to ask for CAB even though I know it's generally used for AGGA cases. This was because I still wanted a little bit more lateral expansion but we wanted to be able to control it a little more on my more recessed side, as well as to close spaces without losing expansion.

I was in the DNA appliance since April and stopped expanding early August. I maxed out the forward expander which only goes to 5mm (though I would have liked a little more which I'm hoping braces will be able to achieve), and the lateral expander we stopped around 7.5mm. I don't have the exact measurements on me at the moment. Whilst I'm currently waiting for my braces I've been wearing the appliance every night as a retainer basically, so as not to lose expansion.

I would say my breathing is definitely a lot better now. Though interestingly, I feel I have gotten to a stage where I actually breathe better without the appliance in. I've noticed if I take a nap without the appliance it is a lot more relaxing and restful than it used to be. However, I do still get occasional TMJ pain on my right side but I think this is more to do with the fact my bite is not aligned properly. When I have the appliance in there is no TMJ pain. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2020 9:40 am
toomer
Trusted Member

@eternally12 That's great to hear you got solid results from it, after only 4 months of wear (April - August)?  You expanded the full 7.5mm in just 4 months?

Dr. Liao is actually not my current provider.  I started with a different Singh-trained provider in my area who treats with DNA, but he's an old-school TMJ guy ... and he said I had to do a bite splint to get my mandible forward first ... which is odd, because the DNA can usually do that once you start expanding the maxilla the mandible often untraps itself.   So the splint is going on 9 months now, 24x7, and now because of some neck and shoulder pain (which almost certainly was caused by the bite splint introducing a lot of skeletal change without any breaks for my body to adapt) he says he doesn't want to move me into expansion until his osteopath referral can get my upper body "more stable".

Oh, and he didn't really make it clear that once he moved the mandible, I would basically lose any/all bite that I had.  I have a complete posterior open bite now on both sides.  Can't eat without the splint.  TMJs are in a good spot (according to Dr. Liao), but qualitatively I can make an argument that my life is worse in some ways now than before I started all of this.

We definitely have not had a positive provider/patient relationship lately.  I made a mistake by just starting out with the first DNA guy I consulted with, since I thought the protocol would pretty much be the same for any dentist treating with it.  Boy, was I wrong about that.  Lesson learned, provider selection really matters.

So that's why I did a consultation with Dr. Liao a few weeks ago - he's my "plan B" if I can't work something out with my current provider to get to the expansion phase in the next few weeks.  I've explained my current circumstance to Dr. Liao, and he thinks he can safely transition me out of this splint-centric approach to his techniques.  Unfortunately, he's trying to pitch me on his own "Liao" appliance ... not DNA.  Apparently he's branching out a bit.  So that's kind of frustrating as well.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2020 10:22 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @thomas22

For anything related to the DNA Appliance  

-

I’ve been wearing a DNA Appliance for two months. 

The initial scans showed an intermolar width of 36.4.

My lower jawbone was also significantly recessed, and the condyle was worn away.

The doctor put me in a y splitter, and a two piece expander for my lower jaw. The second appliance has two metal prongs which prevent my jaw from slipping backwards. This is adjustable.

 Every month I undergo a take home sleep test, and based on that, the prongs on the lower jaw appliance are adjusted. In effect, I will keep on advancing the prongs until my sleep apnea disappears. 

 My sleep isn’t getting better yet, I still don’t dream, but I do breathe more easily when I’m awake. I can usually breathe through both nostrils now, for example. 

I have the perception that my sense of smell is improving as well. 

The appliances aren’t uncomfortable, and at worst, they just feel tight when I put them on. I have been experiencing some pain at my suture points though, as well as mild headaches.

I don’t remember how I discovered functional appliances. They made immediate sense to me though. My facial structure looks normal, if you cover the lower half of my face. The lower half just looks too small, disproportionate to the upper half. I assume this is because my jaw is in the wrong position. If I jut my jaw forward, then it looks proportionate. 

I was told the process would take me two years in total. 

My appliance came back in early November. 

I’d lost a little bit of my upper expansion while the appliance was being remade. But I recovered that quickly. 

The lower appliance they made for me though just didn’t fit me - at all. 

So either they did a bad job taking the impression, or my lower jaw has changed shape. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/12/2020 9:57 am
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @thomas22

 

My appliance came back in early November. 

I’d lost a little bit of my upper expansion while the appliance was being remade. But I recovered that quickly. 

The lower appliance they made for me though just didn’t fit me - at all. 

So either they did a bad job taking the impression, or my lower jaw has changed shape. 

If you had to guess, how much do you think you may have lost in the upper expansion ... compared to how much you had gained ... and how long were you without any appliance - it was a little while, wasn't it?

The lower jaw stuff ... I still just don't really understand since there's not a suture there.  Was the new appliance too large (I assume) meaning there was relapse?  Maybe in the lower that's just entirely alveolar expansion, and therefore it relapses more quickly ... whereas the upper may be a combination of skeletal and dental, so the skeletal stuff held for you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/12/2020 2:26 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@toomer

 I didn't have my upper appliance for four months. I don't think I lost more than two turns of lateral expansion.

 For the lower, my original lower device stopped fitting in April of 2020. They took an impression for a new one in August of 2020, which I only just received.

 It doesn't fit over my teeth at all.

 This may be wishful thinking, but I'd like to believe my lower jaw was remodeling to match my upper jaw during this period. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/12/2020 9:18 pm
toomer
Trusted Member
Posted by: @thomas22

@toomer

 I didn't have my upper appliance for four months. I don't think I lost more than two turns of lateral expansion.

That's pretty damn impressive IMO.  Thanks!  If/when I finally complete my DNA process ... I did want to continue using it for retention long-term, but didn't necessarily want to wear it every single night.  This tells me I could probably wear it a handful of nights per month to help make sure I maintain my gains.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/12/2020 10:24 pm
Page 3 / 3