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DNA Appliance Thread  

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Thomas22
Trusted Member

https://regenquestusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Effects_HBOT_ProliferationDifferentiationOsteoblasts-1.pdf

Here’s a paper on hyperbaric oxygen and bone growth. I don’t know if it leads to better outcomes, but it does speed bone growth. 

My unit is low pressure, 1.3 atmospheres, and I plan on using five times a week for an hour.

 

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Posted : 24/05/2020 2:26 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

My upper jaw has certainly grown faster than my lower, to the point where I probably need to pause while the lower expands. 

comments about the relative difficulty of expanding your lower are true, at least in my case. 

On the other hand, it does suggest that the growth in the upper jaw is occurring not just on the alveolar ridge, but at the suture as well.  

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Posted : 25/05/2020 11:24 am
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @thomas22

On the other hand, it does suggest that the growth in the upper jaw is occurring not just on the alveolar ridge, but at the suture as well.  

What makes you say that?

I have done a ton of research on trying to prove - somehow - that the DNA appliance is actually doing this.  My brother-in-law is a retired oral surgeon, and he has helped me review some of Dr. Singh's papers ... and there's just no way to be proving this is happening.

I really want to believe all the parts about stem cells along the suture and things like that ... but it seems like there would be a lot of ways with a 3D CBCT to prove growth at the suture, but he's never done that.

Curious to know what makes you so certain?

(and again, not saying this to be difficult - I really do want to believe that's what it's doing) 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 11:20 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@toomer

The suture is the only structural difference between the upper and lower jaw. If the upper jaw is expanding more quickly, then it’s probably the suture. 

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Posted : 27/05/2020 1:06 pm
eternally12
Active Member

@thomas22

Have you noticed any pain in your lower jaw even if you don’t have the lower appliance in? For some reason the last few weeks I have been having a lot of pain near the back teeth of my lower jaw when wearing the upper appliance...

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Posted : 28/05/2020 6:13 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @eternally12

@thomas22

Have you noticed any pain in your lower jaw even if you don’t have the lower appliance in? For some reason the last few weeks I have been having a lot of pain near the back teeth of my lower jaw when wearing the upper appliance...

I've had some lingering pain in my canines and incisors. But it goes away within a few hours If I remove it.

That's why I'm sending them back.

I haven't had any issue with my molars.

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Posted : 29/05/2020 12:21 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member

My diastema is noticeably larger than it used to be.

Otherwise nothing to report.

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Posted : 09/06/2020 12:20 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I should add. 

My left molars now touch. I don’t know If that’s tooth alignment, or if my jaws are growing taller, for lack of a better way to put it. 

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Posted : 09/06/2020 6:07 pm
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @thomas22

When I was a child, I had a normal smile, but by the time I reached eight grade, it looked a little strange.

When I smiled, I developed a deep nasiolabial fold on side of my face, and on the other, well, it looked normal. I looked pretty peculiar.

That's gone away... I don't think it's bone growth, but perhaps it's the lower device shunting my jaw forward? I don't know.

I feel like that's similar to me.  I feel like there are photos of me in high school and I have a very wide, level, even smile.  Now, my smile seems more narrow, it's crooked (can't smile as wide on my right as on my left), I've had the "face melt" kind of look described here come in over time.  And I swear now that I've started learning about all of this, I swear that my right eye socket is a bit lower than the left one.  So this all points to cranial deficiency ...

I think your nasiolabial fold going away is absolutely due to the appliance.  Based on some of the patient samples Dr. Singh has shown, they've shown bone growth all the way up into the zygomatic bones (cheek bones) which are obviously not making contact with the appliance in any way - they are on the other side of a skeletal suture.

I've only been in a "bite splint" for 4 months, but my "marionette lines" have mostly disappeared.  And the small double-chin that had formed recently in the past few years has also gone away.  And we're not even expanding right now ... we're just moving the mandible forward a bit during this part.

If you look at this case sample from Dr. Singh (it's at about 15:25 into the video if I got the timestamp wrong) you can absolutely see where it corrected some facial assymetry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHRTuY4s3eY&t=15m25s

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Posted : 09/06/2020 9:18 pm
eternally12
Active Member

According to my appliance, I have now finally hit the 4mm mark of expansion laterally. My dentist thinks I only need one more month with the appliance but I am going to try and hold out till we reach 7mm at least as I am still getting occasional TMJ pain and my tongue doesn’t get perfectly fit in the palate. 

In regards to facial asymmetry, I can definitely see some minor improvements in the soft tissue but overall the expansion seems to have been even. I wish it had expanded my right side more slightly though as that’s where I really need more expansion but unfortunately my dentist said there is no way to really target one side individually with the appliance. He said at best we could over expand and let the larger side relapse slightly, which I already knew but am not really satisfied with that answer. I imagine I wouldn’t want any relapse at all as even my more developed side still has a way to go in my opinion.

Does anyone wonder if the appliance can resolve cants? I feel like it has helped mine but only very slightly so far.

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Posted : 10/06/2020 12:53 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @toomer
Posted by: @thomas22

When I was a child, I had a normal smile, but by the time I reached eight grade, it looked a little strange.

When I smiled, I developed a deep nasiolabial fold on side of my face, and on the other, well, it looked normal. I looked pretty peculiar.

That's gone away... I don't think it's bone growth, but perhaps it's the lower device shunting my jaw forward? I don't know.

I feel like that's similar to me.  I feel like there are photos of me in high school and I have a very wide, level, even smile.  Now, my smile seems more narrow, it's crooked (can't smile as wide on my right as on my left), I've had the "face melt" kind of look described here come in over time.  And I swear now that I've started learning about all of this, I swear that my right eye socket is a bit lower than the left one.  So this all points to cranial deficiency ...

I think your nasiolabial fold going away is absolutely due to the appliance.  Based on some of the patient samples Dr. Singh has shown, they've shown bone growth all the way up into the zygomatic bones (cheek bones) which are obviously not making contact with the appliance in any way - they are on the other side of a skeletal suture.

I've only been in a "bite splint" for 4 months, but my "marionette lines" have mostly disappeared.  And the small double-chin that had formed recently in the past few years has also gone away.  And we're not even expanding right now ... we're just moving the mandible forward a bit during this part.

If you look at this case sample from Dr. Singh (it's at about 15:25 into the video if I got the timestamp wrong) you can absolutely see where it corrected some facial assymetry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHRTuY4s3eY&t=15m25s

Face melt is a good way of putting it. It looked like I had a stroke!

Looking at those photos now, it’s clearly skeletal. One half of my face developed roughly normally, and the other did not.

I wonder, is the issue with my lower appliance a growth issue? Has my face changed enough that it simply doesn’t fit my jaw anymore?

-

I fixed my posture too. Is that the device, habit, or both? I don’t know. 

But I stand up straight now. 

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Posted : 10/06/2020 1:22 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @eternally12

According to my appliance, I have now finally hit the 4mm mark of expansion laterally. My dentist thinks I only need one more month with the appliance but I am going to try and hold out till we reach 7mm at least as I am still getting occasional TMJ pain and my tongue doesn’t get perfectly fit in the palate. 

In regards to facial asymmetry, I can definitely see some minor improvements in the soft tissue but overall the expansion seems to have been even. I wish it had expanded my right side more slightly though as that’s where I really need more expansion but unfortunately my dentist said there is no way to really target one side individually with the appliance. He said at best we could over expand and let the larger side relapse slightly, which I already knew but am not really satisfied with that answer. I imagine I wouldn’t want any relapse at all as even my more developed side still has a way to go in my opinion.

Does anyone wonder if the appliance can resolve cants? I feel like it has helped mine but only very slightly so far.

 Cants, canthal angle?

The research papers say it should help. 

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Posted : 10/06/2020 1:25 am
WHCCARDIO
Active Member

Hi, this is all very interesting. 

I'm currently considering getting the Homeoblock (The DNA Appliance isn't available in my country). My one concern is about the nature of the expansion however. To those of you currently using this device, does your expansion feel skeletal/has your dentist detailed the nature of the expansion? Or is it purely aveolar? The thought of potentially loosening my teeth is quite terrifying. 

@eternally12 I'm also really interested in the potential use of AcceleDent alongside such a treatment if expansion is purely aveolar? Could the use of this device help the potential problems which come with moving teeth through alveolar bone?

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Posted : 11/06/2020 12:24 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I think the spring design of the homeoblock is superior. 

it’s a gentler approach, the acrylic on the DNA appliance locks on your teeth and forces them into position. 

Watch the videos in this thread or on Vimeo and YouTube. Also look at the before and after galleries. You see slow but dramatic facial changes. 

Eyes become level, ramuses lengthen. Nasiolabil folds disappear. 

The whole facial complex grows. 

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Posted : 11/06/2020 9:19 am
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @thomas22

 

-

I fixed my posture too. Is that the device, habit, or both? I don’t know. 

But I stand up straight now. 

Almost certainly the appliance.  Once bite/occlusion gets better, there are a lot of subtle postural things which suddenly start correcting - that maybe you didn't fully notice before.

For example ... after I had had the bite splint for about a month or so, I noticed that I would torque my body to turn around to back out the car and look out the rear window ... suddenly I felt like I could turn a lot further, like I had extra range of motion.  It was really weird.

There are even some of the AGGA providers who claim and take video samples showing much better posture overall.

In fact, there's even another appliance I've heard about that has been used to clear up some minor scoliosis too.

It's all just so wild to see how many systems are so intertwined.

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Posted : 11/06/2020 10:20 pm
Thomas22 liked
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @whccardio

Hi, this is all very interesting. 

I'm currently considering getting the Homeoblock (The DNA Appliance isn't available in my country). My one concern is about the nature of the expansion however. To those of you currently using this device, does your expansion feel skeletal/has your dentist detailed the nature of the expansion? Or is it purely aveolar? The thought of potentially loosening my teeth is quite terrifying. 

@eternally12 I'm also really interested in the potential use of AcceleDent alongside such a treatment if expansion is purely aveolar? Could the use of this device help the potential problems which come with moving teeth through alveolar bone?

Welcome aboard!  If the Homeoblock is the only appliance available in your country, it might be worth a shot.  Dr. Belfor and Dr. Singh actually created the joint patent on the system - they apparently just disagreed on some of the smaller details and went different ways with it.

As for the expansion ... well ... wow.  You're basically me, about 4 months ago.  And reading forums like this (and especially seeing Ronald Ead's story) is both enlightening but potentially not helpful.

So there's two reasons why you really want skeletal expansion - #1 it's safer, #2 it won't really relapse over time.

So how do you get skeletal expansion?  MMA surgery is the most straightforward route.  But if you don't want to do that, you can do any of the palatal-suture splitting procedures ... EASE, DOME, MSE, etc.  Each has some reasons why it might be right, but reasons why you might not want to do it.  For me, as someone who does professional speaking and presenting for a living, the 1cm gap between the two upper front teeth that DOME creates ... is just too much for me to consider.

So, what's the discussion about alveolar expansion and if that's bad?  Two main things - #1 if not done well, there are risks to push the teeth through the alveolar structure.  That's a bad outcome.  Even orthodontists have to worry about this.  So ideally you want a provider who will take the expansion slowly, and I guess check with periodic CBCTs.  #2 alveolar bone is more "spongey" (for lack of a better word) so relapse is much more likely.  Children who get orthodontic braces often have to wear a retainer for a little while to make sure things hold, but then are able to stop.  When adults get braces they sometimes have to get permanent retainers installed behind their teeth, because the teeth would have risk of relapsing over time.  So the risk with anything that's happening only in the alveolar process is that it will just relapse back over the course of a couple years. 

(Then there's other things like "root resorption" which are honestly (as far as I can tell) the same types of risks you find with standard orthodontics - you're moving the teeth around, the roots might shorten up a bit.)

Now, is the DNA/Homeoblock providing expansion at the palatal suture, only in the alveolar process, or a combination of both?  I've spent months reviewing this, and I believe it is doing a little bit of both.  On the alveolar process, if you are increasing the overall diameter of the arch as measured from the left rear molar, around the front incisors, to the right rear molar ... it's going to be longer at the end then at the start.  So there's absolutely alveolar expansion, there's no other way to explain it (but this differs from something like an MMA surgery procedure).  But Dr. Singh and Dr. Belfor believe that the appliance - I guess since it doesn't make direct contact with the roof of the mouth - provides light signaling to the suture that is like the tongue, and the suction of the palate against the suture and then moving down ... creates growth/stretching of the suture over time.

If you search for "Vivos DNA" on YouTube, there's a 90 minute lecture from Dr. Singh on his process.  At about the halfway mark, he details why he believes we're getting sutural growth with his appliance ... instead of entirely alveolar.

So assuming DNA - if used by a competent provider - doesn't have significant risk of pushing teeth through the bone, the only real downside is more potential risk of relapse.  Dr. Singh is very cautious in his language on this ... they say you are "potentially" cured for life.

But the way I look at it ... in my 50's, my breathing is so bad, I'm on CPAP, severe AHI of 41 ... TMJ, other issues ... that if I have to wear the Vivos appliance nightly for the rest of my life, that's actually a far better tradeoff than my current situation.  In reality, I've seen case reports from some patients who say they'll just pop it in for a few nights every few weeks to make sure things aren't relapsing at all.

For me, the #1 appeal is that Dr. Singh - based on the case studies he has published - really seems to demonstrate that they've frequently been able to cure mild to moderate sleep apnea.

Welcome to the rabbit hole!  It gets super deep in here!

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Posted : 11/06/2020 10:39 pm
Thomas22 liked
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @eternally12

According to my appliance, I have now finally hit the 4mm mark of expansion laterally. My dentist thinks I only need one more month with the appliance but I am going to try and hold out till we reach 7mm at least as I am still getting occasional TMJ pain and my tongue doesn’t get perfectly fit in the palate. 

Did you provider have a specific reason why they seemed to think 5mm was right for you, but for some reason you think you need/want more?

I don't know if you saw Ronald Ead's latest video on his JawHacks channel on youtube ... but based on the comment discussion there, it seems like he may have just tried to push a bit too far because he was trying to get a full 10mm out of AGGA after doing a previous acrylic expansion of some number of millimeters.  So even though the numbers seem small, every mm makes a difference.  So it might make sense to get to 5, and then maybe let the body rest for a while, take some new CBCTs and make sure the teeth are still comfortably on the alveolar ridge before each additional mm?

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Posted : 11/06/2020 10:46 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@toomer

I wonder what criteria Dr. Balfor and Dr. Singh use for deciding how much to expand.

Is it based on the size of your face, or do they target a certain inter molar width, for example? A fixed ratio seems like the most reasonable option.

 

I haven't worn my lower appliance for a month now. So the contact between my left molars surprised me. Is it possible that my upper left jaw grew downwards? That seems unlikely.

Looking at the mold they took, my lower left jaw was underdeveloped. It seems more likely that it has grown slightly, pushing the teeth on the left side up, and into contact. Which means the bite block on that side is working, encouraging growth in the lower jaw, or it's happening independently of the upper device. But at the same time, I think my lower just must be expanding laterally too - otherwise how else is it keep pace with the expansion in my upper jaw? If it was staying in place, my teeth wouldn't touch.

No idea.

This is hindsight, but I wish I took monthly self portraits, that would help me track the physical changes in my face. 

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Posted : 12/06/2020 11:15 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

One last comment for the night.

I don't know if the hbot is helping with bone growth. That's an unknowable, but my skin does look younger, which happens whenever I use the machine for a few weeks. Hbot increases collagen production.

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Posted : 12/06/2020 11:24 pm
WHCCARDIO
Active Member

@toomer thanks for the information.

 

Currently, how is your expansion going? Would you recommend the appliance? And has your dental provider gave any information about the expansion process, alveolar stuff etc?

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Posted : 13/06/2020 2:23 am
eternally12
Active Member

@thomas22

It’s so funny. Literally after I mentioned the whether the appliance helps with cants or not I feel like I’ve noticed it actually helping mine. As my palate has expanded it seems the angle of my jaw has slightly evened out too.

As much as I would love to believe the expansion is all in the maxilla, I do think some of the palate expansion is in part to do with teeth being pushed through the alveolar bone. How much, I’m not sure. But there are definitely times I feel the pressure being placed on the teeth, and then there are times when I genuinely feel a (pleasant) pressure in the maxilla region under my nose area. 

Since I have been expanding 0.25mm every 4-5 days lately rather than every 7 days I have also been playing around with doing a slight quarter turn nearly every day. I am a little worried that doing this may destabilise the teeth somehow, but then the pressure applied to the teeth with each turn isn’t as significant as if I did an entire turn once a week. Maybe I’ll mix it up a bit more...

@toomer

Do you know how much Ronald expanded initially with the palate expander he used before trying AGGA? 1cm of expansion would be lovely but I think it’s better to err on the side of caution and 7mm to me sounds like the perfect amount of expansion without becoming dangerous (for my particular palate). 

I would’ve thought that the amount of expansion required should be based around the size of the tongue...that seems logical to me. But I don’t even think Dr Singh or Dr Belfor necessarily would base it around the tongue size. I’m sure there’s a few other factors involved. Does every DNA appliance provider get their patient’s treatment plan viewed by one of Dr Singh’s specialists? 

 

@whccardio

I imagine any type of stimulation to the bone/gums is helpful. I would definitely try it out if you have the option to use the device. That’s probably partially why chewing is also helpful. Chewing itself helps upright teeth into a straighter position rather than just being pushed on an angle according to the orthodontic research. 

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Posted : 13/06/2020 9:47 am
eternally12
Active Member

@thomas22

I forgot to mention, sounds like you’ve had some good progress too. I do wonder about my lower jaw. Sometimes when I expand the appliance and first put it in in the evening I feel a lot of pressure in my lower jaw for some reason. And I don’t even have a lower appliance! So I’m not sure what’s happening there or what that means. The pressure can be mildly painful, but maybe the lower jaw really is expanding slightly. My molars never touched in perfect occlusion since having braces as a teenager,  and they still don’t. Although, there does seem to be some improvement. I think my doctor’s intention was simply to incline the lower back teeth outwards via some orthodontic treatment at the end of the DNA appliance treatment to get the molars to occlude properly. I believe this is the standard process for those who they deem do not require a lower appliance? 

I have already noticed pretty significant improvements in my face and with looking more youthful. Because my palate is now fuller, when I smile my smile lines are no longer as deep around the eyes as they were previously and my upper lip seems slightly fuller. 

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Posted : 13/06/2020 10:05 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @whccardio

@toomer thanks for the information.

 

Currently, how is your expansion going? Would you recommend the appliance? And has your dental provider gave any information about the expansion process, alveolar stuff etc?

The problem with the DNA system, is that the dental providers don’t understand the process. They’re just technicians.

They scan your mouth and build a 3D model, and they’re trained to adjust the devices as needed. But that’s it. 

So if you have in depth questions - they probably won’t be able to answer them.  

I would absolutely recommend the appliance though. I do think the design of the Homeoblock may be superior, it’s also much cheaper. 3k vs perhaps 9k. 

I’m coming up on the five month mark and I have the sense that my face is changing. The nasiolabal folds have disappeared and my breathing is certainly much easier. The gap between my two front teeth has also grown.

Changes are slow though. Bones grow slowly. So I suspect I’ll look back at old photos in two years, and that’s when the changes will pop.

Thats not to say the month to month changes are trivial, but that I can’t measure them. I don’t have the tools. 

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Posted : 13/06/2020 12:23 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @eternally12

@thomas22

It’s so funny. Literally after I mentioned the whether the appliance helps with cants or not I feel like I’ve noticed it actually helping mine. As my palate has expanded it seems the angle of my jaw has slightly evened out too.

As much as I would love to believe the expansion is all in the maxilla, I do think some of the palate expansion is in part to do with teeth being pushed through the alveolar bone. How much, I’m not sure. But there are definitely times I feel the pressure being placed on the teeth, and then there are times when I genuinely feel a (pleasant) pressure in the maxilla region under my nose area. 

Since I have been expanding 0.25mm every 4-5 days lately rather than every 7 days I have also been playing around with doing a slight quarter turn nearly every day. I am a little worried that doing this may destabilise the teeth somehow, but then the pressure applied to the teeth with each turn isn’t as significant as if I did an entire turn once a week. Maybe I’ll mix it up a bit more...

@toomer

Do you know how much Ronald expanded initially with the palate expander he used before trying AGGA? 1cm of expansion would be lovely but I think it’s better to err on the side of caution and 7mm to me sounds like the perfect amount of expansion without becoming dangerous (for my particular palate). 

I would’ve thought that the amount of expansion required should be based around the size of the tongue...that seems logical to me. But I don’t even think Dr Singh or Dr Belfor necessarily would base it around the tongue size. I’m sure there’s a few other factors involved. Does every DNA appliance provider get their patient’s treatment plan viewed by one of Dr Singh’s specialists? 

 

@whccardio

I imagine any type of stimulation to the bone/gums is helpful. I would definitely try it out if you have the option to use the device. That’s probably partially why chewing is also helpful. Chewing itself helps upright teeth into a straighter position rather than just being pushed on an angle according to the orthodontic research. 

I like the idea of smaller, more frequent adjustments. That just makes sense to me. 

I suspect that would be harder for most patients to manage though. 

I have switched to a keto diet, for unrelated reasons, and I’m eating a lot more red meat. So there’s more chewing. 

Perhaps not a bad thing?

Keto reduces inflammation in the body, and inflammation slows bone growth. So that’s a side benefit. 

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Posted : 13/06/2020 12:26 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I should google this myself, but how does the lower jaw fit into its socket?

If the upper jaw expands, does it push the socket outwards?

If so, the lower jaw would be forced to expand with it. 

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Posted : 13/06/2020 12:38 pm
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @thomas22

@toomer

I wonder what criteria Dr. Balfor and Dr. Singh use for deciding how much to expand.

Is it based on the size of your face, or do they target a certain inter molar width, for example? A fixed ratio seems like the most reasonable option.

 

I haven't worn my lower appliance for a month now. So the contact between my left molars surprised me. Is it possible that my upper left jaw grew downwards? That seems unlikely.

Looking at the mold they took, my lower left jaw was underdeveloped. It seems more likely that it has grown slightly, pushing the teeth on the left side up, and into contact. Which means the bite block on that side is working, encouraging growth in the lower jaw, or it's happening independently of the upper device. But at the same time, I think my lower just must be expanding laterally too - otherwise how else is it keep pace with the expansion in my upper jaw? If it was staying in place, my teeth wouldn't touch.

No idea.

This is hindsight, but I wish I took monthly self portraits, that would help me track the physical changes in my face. 

It's a good question.  I don't know how Vivos comes up with the target treatment plan based on the data they receive.  Certainly, for some cases it might be pretty straightforward - if you had extraction/retraction orthodontics and they took out your premolars, then 7mm is the default (since 7mm is the "anterior-posterior domain" measurement of the premolars).  If you have other things going on, maybe they have other ways to assess that.

As for your upper left jaw growing downwards - yes, that is a possibility.  As the "vaulted ceiling" of your maxilla flattens out, the plate drops a bit.  If you watch the most recent video from SmashFaceJimbo on YouTube ... he noted that his upper palate has dropped 0.5mm since he started.  If you watch the "Good Day Orange County" video interview with Huntsman (CEO of Vivos) he says something similar about how the maxilla and mandible evolve once better breathing is restored.

How does the lower jaw keep pace with the upper?  Simple.  Eating.  "The mandible follows the maxilla" is what they say ... so if your maxilla is going through evolution, your mandible should be keeping track with it over time (as long as it's not too fast).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2020 3:26 pm
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @whccardio

@toomer thanks for the information.

 

Currently, how is your expansion going? Would you recommend the appliance? And has your dental provider gave any information about the expansion process, alveolar stuff etc?

I am not currently in an expansion appliance yet.   Only a bite splint.  My expansion appliance(s) process should hopefully start in the next month or two.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2020 3:27 pm
eternally12
Active Member

@Thomas22

Your upper appliance is a Y-plate, yes? Lately I've been wondering why it seems like I have 4mm of lateral expansion on my appliance, whereas the forward saggital expansion seems slightly less even though I have turned them at the same rate. Upon doing some research, according to Dr Robert Ricketts gaining significant arch length can be achieved by gaining lateral width. Apparently, a gain of 4 mm in molar width yields an increase of 1 mm in arch length. I believe most of his research is for the Damon braces system however. But I am sure the premise is the same and it can be applied to any type of expansion - and explains why when I measure the saggital space on my expander it seems to have increased slightly less than the transverse expansion. 

I also found a few websites talk about how the bone/tissue continue to change/remould up to 2 years after using the appliance (I think this applies to any dental appliance for that matter). I was always under the impression this was the case as even with surgery I've noticed patients' faces can often look completely different a year or two after the swelling has disappeared. 

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Posted : 13/06/2020 8:02 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@eternally12

 "I also found a few websites talk about how the bone/tissue continue to change/remould up to 2 years after using the appliance (I think this applies to any dental appliance for that matter). I was always under the impression this was the case as even with surgery I've noticed patients' faces can often look completely different a year or two after the swelling has disappeared."

 That makes a lot of sense to me. I imagine changes will cascade through our facial complex, and given the slow rate of bone growth, it could take a while to complete.

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Posted : 20/06/2020 11:06 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

When I began treatment I had an open bite on my left side. 

Two weeks ago my left molars made contact for the first time  

Today, everything up through my canine makes contact. 

And this is while I continue to expand the upper jaw, while not wearing a lower appliance. 

my diastemia grows larger. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/06/2020 5:11 pm
toomer
Eminent Member

@thomas22

All in all ... that sounds like pretty positive progress?  Are you happy with it?

Where is the diastema?  Is it between the upper front two incisors?

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Posted : 25/06/2020 7:45 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @toomer

@thomas22

All in all ... that sounds like pretty positive progress?  Are you happy with it?

Where is the diastema?  Is it between the upper front two incisors?

I am happy with it.

I try and report observable phenomenons because that's what I was looking for when I began researching palate expanders. I wanted concrete observations, so I could decide if it was worth it. I was also curious about the reports that the mandible would grow, on it's own, if you expanded your upper jaw. I was skeptical  - but I think it's true.

Overall, even just five months into treatment, this has been worth it. Breathing is easier, and my jaws have shifted into proportional alignment.

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Posted : 25/06/2020 9:35 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @toomer

Where is the diastema?  Is it between the upper front two incisors?

Yes, it makes me think there's bone growth along the suture line.

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Posted : 25/06/2020 9:35 pm
toomer
Eminent Member

@thomas22

Interesting.  I thought the axial springs would allow providers to direct the movement of the teeth a bit so that there wouldn’t be too much of a gap that forms, but the fact that the gap is forming there really does lend credibility to at least some growth occurring due to stretching the suture.

 

You’re actually the second patient I saw today that started at the beginning of the year, and is reporting a midline diastema.

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Posted : 25/06/2020 10:46 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @toomer

@thomas22

Interesting.  I thought the axial springs would allow providers to direct the movement of the teeth a bit so that there wouldn’t be too much of a gap that forms, but the fact that the gap is forming there really does lend credibility to at least some growth occurring due to stretching the suture.

 

You’re actually the second patient I saw today that started at the beginning of the year, and is reporting a midline diastema.

I looked at the springs last night, they’re anchored into the plastic in a way that you can’t really change their angle.

I don’t think you could adjust them. And if you did, it would reduce the force they exert.

On the Homeoblock you also have one spring that touches both front incisors simultaneously, pushing them forward, on the DNA you have two separate springs that are set at slight angles.

For me, now, my biggest hope is that the device will correct the asymmetries in my facial structure. 

Pure vanity I suppose, but I realized that all my favorite photos depict the right side of my face. I look odd at any other angle. 

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Posted : 26/06/2020 1:10 pm
mr-sand-man123
Active Member

I'm about two months into wearing my upper DNA appliance and I haven't really noticed any observable changes, other than the appliance has clearly expanded....but I haven't noticed a gap in my teeth, or better nasal breathing, or a change in my bite (maybe a little). I have maybe been expanding slower than I should be, but I've been nervous about tipping teeth, and I am unable to see my provider in-person to check any of this. When I wake up in the morning I definitely feel a bit of pressure or soreness around the sides of my palate near my teeth, particularly in the front where the coaxial springs are, which I hope is normal and isn't a sign that it's pushing teeth instead of doing something else. I definitely feel a bit of pressure on my front teeth, almost like my front teeth are pushing forward, but I can't really tell if it's the teeth exactly or the boney area before the teeth. I can't say I'm feeling any pressure on my palate or suture...but should I be feeling anything there?

I looked at the springs on the appliance and I'm not really sure what they could be doing. They're just little pieces of metal, like paper clips, just sitting at the front of the appliance. I'm skeptical that they are 'sending signals' to stimulate stem cells or whatever Dr. Singh claims. I'm not really sure how that would work. Seems like it could just as likely be some marketing mumbo jumbo or a differentiating feature for their patent. But what do I know?

I also don't know if I'm placing my tongue in the right place. My provider didn't give me a lot of instruction about that, but I think I should be trying to 'mew' even with the appliance in, and the pressure from my tongue when I swallow should be pushing against the front of the appliance where the springs are shouldn't it?  It's difficult to put my tongue up there with the appliance in, since there isn't a lot of room, so I think I sometimes forget to do that and my tongue maybe falls down sometimes.

 

 

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Posted : 26/06/2020 2:57 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@mr-sand-man123

 For me it's been a serious of, aha, moments. One day you'll just notice your breathing is better, or that your bite has improved.

 The posture improvements were an exciting one for me. It occurred five months in, almost to the day.

 You're familiar with the way people hunch over to read their cellphones? It's more comfortable for me to lift my phone up to eye level now.

 I keep my tongue planted on the the bottom of  the device but I don't apply any extra force. It just sticks there. For a while it felt like there wasn't enough forward room in my mouth for my tongue, it felt like it should rest between my upper and lower incisors, but that's changing.

As far as the springs go, I like them because they're a gentle way to expand the jaw. And if you go too quickly, you'll fee pain. And while I have no evidence to support this, I suspect gentle expansion achieves better results. My theory being that all the bones are connected, and when you expand one, the others must expand with it. So sticking with the normal speed of bone growth seems prudent.

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Posted : 26/06/2020 11:01 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I don’t want to overstate this, but I think my sense of smell is becoming more acute.

I had a very limited range going into this. Powerful odors like paint, yes, but that was about it. 

Mew has a video where he compares malocclusion to a piece of crumpled paper. Everything gets folded in and compressed back on itself. 

 It does feel like my face is, decompressing. 

 I do forgot what I post here sometimes. If I haven’t mentioned it though, I did shift to a Keto diet a little over a month ago.

 I’m skinny but I shower signs of low grade inflammation - dandruff for example. And inflammation impairs bone growth.  

 The dandruff went away within a week, and my eyesight is actually crisper, of all things. I have gotten to skinny for my own good though and I’m trying to build up more fat. 

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Posted : 28/06/2020 3:09 pm
Robbie343 liked
eternally12
Active Member

That’s good to hear you are noticing those improvements! I’ve noticed pretty similar improvements myself.

I’ve also finally passed the 5mm milestone! I was supposed to have a check up today but it’s been delayed a few more weeks due to coronavirus. 

A few things I’ve noticed: there definitely is some aspect of moving teeth through alveolar bone but I’m not sure to what degree that is. I’ve been proactively trying to eat very chewy, hard foods the past few weeks to ensure bone growth is stimulated and minimise the tipping of teeth. I believe this is a key factor in ensuring it is bone growth and not just tipping.

Also, I’ve finally developed mild spaces (approx 2mm) between my canines and premolars. This was really not noticeable before the last 2 turns I would say. I never had my premolars taken out but I did have molars taken during my teens which I think significantly narrowed my palate. Either way, I don’t mind the slight spaces! I was just surprised to see them as it was never in our plan to open up that space. 

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Posted : 29/06/2020 3:00 am
Thomas22 liked
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @eternally12

ensuring it is bone growth and not just tipping.

So I just met with a traditional Orthodontist who - unsurprisingly - felt that appliances will just tip the teeth to get any necessary transverse expansion.

I also had an appointment with my DNA provider (although I'm not in DNA yet, we're working on a bite splint first to correct and level out my mandible) this morning, and he says what he does with the appliance is orthopedic correction ... not orthodontic correction (which is inflammatory by nature).   He was very certain to make that distinction.  

I interpret that to be "skeletal correction, not dentoalveolar".

As patients who are not trained in years of dentistry and orthodontics ... how on earth are we supposed to make heads-or-tails of any of this?  I mean, I really want to believe everything that Dr. Singh has said is true, and it is stem cells along the suture responding ... but ... wow, how does one know for sure?

For your case specifically - would you really know if your teeth were tipping?  Apparently my lower teeth are tipped inwards slightly, but I had no idea until I started working with my DNA specialist.

Would your provider know just by looking?  Does the DNA treatment protocol call for periodic additional CBCTs periodically to make sure the teeth are staying at the same angle, make sure they're not pushed out of the alveolar ridge?  

If a tooth has tipped a little bit and is detected, can it be tipped back somehow to correct?

This all seems so risky.  It's frustrating.  Sorry for dropping in a bunch of things that are probably un-answerable, it's just that the clock is ticking down on my go/no-go decision point ... DNA or full-on orthodontics  + MMA surgery ... and even after 6 months of investigating this space and really feeling positive about DNA, I still have doubts (especially when I go sit with a traditional orthodontist or oral surgeon who just absolutely say it can't be done).

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Posted : 29/06/2020 3:53 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@toomer

 I don’t think tooth tipping is actually possible. 

 What I’ve found is that by keeping my mouth closed, and my teeth in contact, it forces them into an upright position. So any tipping is corrected. 

 The device just works. And to a degree, probably any device works, be it the DNA, the Homeoblock, or even the ALF. 

 If your on the fence, go back and watch the time lapse videos up thread.

 In my opinion, unless it’s a truly serious case, a plate expander will be superior to surgery, because it will always produce more natural results. 

 Surgery is an art form, and it takes a gifted soul to do it right. 

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Posted : 29/06/2020 4:21 pm
toomer
Eminent Member

@thomas22

Yep.  In my heart, I agree 100% with everything that you said.  Especially about giving my body a shot at correcting its deficiencies on its own first.  If it works, my body is certainly going to do a far better job correcting throughout the mid face and nasal regions than even a skilled oral surgeon probably would.

But in my head?  When I'm faced with a professional with 20+ years' experience who says "It can't be done" straight to my face??  It's hard.

(it doesn't help that one of those professionals is my brother-in-law, a retired oral surgeon from Texas).

But Dr. Singh in his long 90-minute video says quite clearly "no tipping of teeth."  The time-lapse video earlier in the thread (if it's the one I think it is), yeah - to me things don't look like they're tipping ... but I have no medical or dental background.  Dr. Belfor, in a video about Homeoblock ... basically said the same thing ... if you expand the alveolus, the teeth just go along for the ride ... implying that the body knows how to keep them in position.  As long as you don't expand too fast, everything should be fine.

So hard to know.

Thanks for chiming in, though.  Always good to chalk up yet another "don't seem to be getting any teeth tipping with DNA" story to add to the list.

 

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Posted : 29/06/2020 4:51 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member
Posted by: @toomer

But in my head?  When I'm faced with a professional with 20+ years' experience who says "It can't be done" straight to my face??  It's hard.

You need to make the best decision for yourself. Whatever that is. 

 The devices work. 

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Posted : 29/06/2020 5:02 pm
Owp99
New Member

Hey folks,

I just got the DNA appliance today, and while wearing it in bed, I felt quite a bit of pressure on my teeth. Nothing that wasn’t manageable, but it was noticeable for sure. I took it out briefly to get some water, and felt a good amount on pain in my upper front teeth. Is this normal? I understand that it’s my first day, so of course it’s going to feel different, but I am very curious if discomfort in front teeth is normal at this beginning stage.  

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Posted : 30/06/2020 12:52 am
Thomas22 liked
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@owp99

 I felt pain for two reasons. As my lower jaw expanded, the fit of the lower appliance deteriorated, until it became painful. This apparently is somewhat common? And many people need to have their appliances replaced as the shape of the jaw shifts 

 The other time it’s hurt, is when I’ve advanced the springs on the upper appliance too quickly. When I’ve done that, I simply retract it slightly, which revolves the issue.

 Pain isn’t good because it means (eventually) inflammation, which impairs bone growth.  

 I do remember being advised that there could be some mild pain when I first started and to take Advil. If Advil doesn’t resolve it, then I would talk to your doctor.

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Posted : 30/06/2020 12:44 pm
Owp99 liked
Owp99
New Member

@thomas22

Thank you, I really appreciate this response! I am thinking that part of the reason I felt the pain in my two upper front teeth specifically is because they point slightly outwards. The combination of the springs putting pressure on the back of the teeth along with the bite block keeping them in place I believe is the culprit for the pain. I’m sure I could’ve managed just fine with the appliance on the entire night, but I really didn’t want to take any chances. 

I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread as it’s given me a good idea of what to expect on my DNA appliance journey. I hope you and the others continue to update it with your progress.

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Posted : 30/06/2020 5:20 pm
Thomas22 liked
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@owp99

 It’s my pleasure, I hope my anecdotal experience will be useful to other people as they research the process. 

 It will be a little while before you see changes, month five has been the one where I’ve felt things really shifted. That’s when my posture fixed itself, and my forward head posture went away. 

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Posted : 30/06/2020 5:28 pm
Owp99 liked
toomer
Eminent Member
Posted by: @thomas22

 Pain isn’t good because it means (eventually) inflammation, which impairs bone growth.  

 

This is kind of a "yes and no" as far as I understand it.

I had a stress fracture in my fibula at the start of the year, so my doctor told me I could take pain killers as long as they weren't NSAIDs.  I asked why, and he said you did not want to interrupt the inflammation process, because inflammation is how the body heals bone.

This page explains better than I can: http://www.runningwife.com/2014/03/nsaids-delay-bone-healing/

Adding on to that, inflammation is how typical orthodontic movement happens.  That monthly checkup with your orthodontist where they tighten your braces, and then you can't eat for like 24-36 hours?  Yeah, that's inflammation ... causing bone resorption on the side you're moving away from, and (hopefully) remodeling on the side you're moving towards.

Having said that, Dr. Singh in one of his videos is quite clear ... that the DNA should not be causing orthodontic/inflammatory movement (i.e.: pain).  My interpretation of his theory - he believes that how the appliance fits basically mimics the tongue in the roof of the mouth, and it's basically the body doing its own remodeling over 9-18 months to accommodate what the body must assume is an ever-growing tongue.  He says the body knows how to move teeth without inflammation occurring, and so he believes he has tapped into that with DNA.

Since I'm not in the DNA appliance yet, I can't comment about painful experiences.  But if there is pain, I would 1) speak to my provider, 2) take pain killers that are not NSAIDs.

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Posted : 01/07/2020 6:56 pm
eternally12
Active Member

It's interesting. I certainly do not believe that all pain is bad pain. But I must admit that the past few times I have turned my appliance I have felt some more tenderness in the teeth the following day or two. Admittedly, I am probably turned a little on the faster side - trying to do a full turn by every 4th day. This is what has made me think that the appliance has also achieved some degree of expansion through moving teeth through the alveolar bone, though I'm not sure to what degree. I have also missed out on my routine monthly check up to make adjustments to the appliance due to covid. Perhaps I would benefit from slowing down. 

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Posted : 02/07/2020 4:22 am
Owp99
New Member

I had my dentist shave down the acrylic on the front bite block and that seemed to help quite a bit. After wearing the appliance for multiple hours and taking it out, I do feel quite a bit of pressure on my teeth, but I have to imagine that is normal & just a sign of the appliance doing its job. Now the only points where I really experience any pain are where the metal springs slightly dig into my gums under my 12 yr molars. 

Just out of curiosity, do you guys wear your appliance for 12-15 hours in a row, or do you break it up over the course of the day? Does anyone know if there’s a method that’s more effective?

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Posted : 02/07/2020 12:12 pm
mr-sand-man123
Active Member

@eternally12 I've been doing two half-turns every week. My dentist said it was okay to do that. I'm not really sure if it has a different effect, but I think it should be fine if you're still achieving the same expansion every week. Although sometimes if I don't wear it as much on certain days, it still feels tight after a few days and I end up doing only a half turn after like 5 or 6 days. It'll probably take longer for me to see results but I kind of prefer to play it safe than push things too quickly.

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Posted : 02/07/2020 3:01 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member
Posted by: @thomas22

@owp99

 It’s my pleasure, I hope my anecdotal experience will be useful to other people as they research the process. 

 It will be a little while before you see changes, month five has been the one where I’ve felt things really shifted. That’s when my posture fixed itself, and my forward head posture went away. 

Did you have any neck Or back pain Prior to your posture correction? 

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Posted : 02/07/2020 8:11 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@robbie343 I had no pain.

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Posted : 03/07/2020 1:46 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

I stole this from the Homeoblock website.

It's a before and after photo - and what I found interesting was how the sinus grew, and became symmetrical. There are a lot of invisible changes that occur due to treatment.

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Posted : 05/07/2020 3:38 pm
Owp99 liked
Thomas22
Trusted Member

Six Month Update

 

 - My posture is fixed. I stand upright.

 - I can always breath through both nostrils. They still feel slightly constricted though.

 - My open bite closed.

 - I've developed a gap between my two front teeth.

 - Nasiolabial folds are reduced.

 

What's Next?

 

 - I'd love to see more symmetry in my face. Especially between my eyes, and my cheekbones.

 - I'd like to see my antegonial notch disappear. How much remodeling is possible?

 - A better sense of smell.

 - Easier breathing (which I'm sure will happen)

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Posted : 05/07/2020 8:35 pm
toomer and Owp99 liked
toomer
Eminent Member

@thomas22 Any change in your sleep apnea?  You started off your thread months ago noting those problems, that you don’t dream, etc.  Any changes there?  Are you still doing a monthly sleep test with your provider - and if so, are you seeing results there?

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Posted : 06/07/2020 12:07 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@toomer

 Because of Covid shutdowns, I went for a long period without a visit. And thus no sleep tests. 

 I’m looking to change providers right now to one that’s closer to me as well. 

 The mRNA eliminated my snoring immediately. I’m currently only wearing the upper, and I recorded my sleep session last night with a phone app. 

 I snored but it was much milder than before, and very infrequent. 

 I do dream more.

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Posted : 06/07/2020 10:48 am
toomer
Eminent Member

@thomas22

That's great ... given that you said at the start of this thread that you didn't dream at all!  So it's definitely doing something.

I went from a "rarely/almost never dream" state ... to dreaming multiple nights a week once I went on CPAP.  So the appliance definitely is helping you.

In the absence of doing a regular sleep test, phone apps are good (I use Snore Lab).  But I also have found the use of a logging pulse oximeter to be an interesting aid.  I use the Wellue O2 ring available on Amazon.  It's a bit pricey for a pulseox, but the ease of use and comfort is really worth it (it goes on the thumb like a ring, instead of on the fingertip like a clip).  

Now it's no replacement for a proper HST or PSG ... but if my oxygen levels stay up all night long, I know my CPAP is working.  I'm looking forward to the day when maybe my oxygen levels stay up all night long even without the CPAP.  It's also given me a clue that my OSA is much more positional in nature.  If I sleep on my side, I have very few disturbances ... but if I'm on my back, it's quite a mess (which is what also points to this being an upper airway problem, maxilla/dental).

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Posted : 06/07/2020 12:57 pm
Thomas22 liked
Thomas22
Trusted Member

My snore lab score was a five. It doesn’t register any snoring until just before I woke. 

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Posted : 06/07/2020 5:32 pm
toomer liked
mr-sand-man123
Active Member
Posted by: @thomas22

 The mRNA eliminated my snoring immediately. I’m currently only wearing the upper, and I recorded my sleep session last night with a phone app. 

 

How come you're only wearing the upper if the mRNA eliminated your snoring? Do you not want to keep that up?

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Posted : 08/07/2020 1:53 am
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