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Apollo’s Accountability Record

201 Posts
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Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 40: 25ml, 24sec, 25min

I’ve now reached the Frolov manual’s target range for water volume and session duration.

 
Posted : 26/09/2022 10:58 am
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Posts: 10
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc

I’ve emailed him but he doesn’t answer, would you mind if I share with you my facepulling method so you could tell me if it will work or not.

I’m happy to discuss your idea, but I couldn’t tell you if it will work or not. None of the facepulling strategies I’ve tried have been dramatically successful.

Ok so im also using some of plato’s materials such as the teeth retainer with 2 holes and 2 clips anchored to them with 2 bands,but instead of the bands being attached to some sort of helmet, its attached to a pull up bar which iv’e managed to position it on a place where it hangs above and infront my face,between a wall and my wardrobe where my bed is located, so I sit (not lay) on my bed with the retainer on while the pull up bar its just a little above and forward so the pulling angle is right.I’m doing 30 minutes sessions 5 days a week.What do you think about it?

 
Posted : 27/09/2022 11:06 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc
Ok so im also using some of plato’s materials such as the teeth retainer with 2 holes and 2 clips anchored to them with 2 bands,but instead of the bands being attached to some sort of helmet, its attached to a pull up bar which iv’e managed to position it on a place where it hangs above and infront my face,between a wall and my wardrobe where my bed is located, so I sit (not lay) on my bed with the retainer on while the pull up bar its just a little above and forward so the pulling angle is right.I’m doing 30 minutes sessions 5 days a week.What do you think about it?

It sounds consistent with Plato’s approach. Be careful not to hurt yourself or damage your teeth with too much tension, especially if the retainer could slip off. A separate fixation point just means you’d have to keep your head in position throughout your session to avoid changing the vector or tension. I’ve always been skeptical that the kind of short sessions advocated by Plato anchored to the teeth could have much effect, and I never considered his before/after images to be remarkable. Even using reverse pull headgear attached to my bone-anchored MSE for 12+ hours per day for several months didn’t seem to achieve appreciable advancement. Plato emphasizes being in a parasympathetic state during his short sessions. So whatever you can do to remain calm and breathe slowly and diaphragmatically throughout your sessions might help. Good luck!

 
Posted : 27/09/2022 11:29 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 41: 25ml, 25sec, 25min

 
Posted : 27/09/2022 11:33 am
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Posts: 10
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc
Ok so im also using some of plato’s materials such as the teeth retainer with 2 holes and 2 clips anchored to them with 2 bands,but instead of the bands being attached to some sort of helmet, its attached to a pull up bar which iv’e managed to position it on a place where it hangs above and infront my face,between a wall and my wardrobe where my bed is located, so I sit (not lay) on my bed with the retainer on while the pull up bar its just a little above and forward so the pulling angle is right.I’m doing 30 minutes sessions 5 days a week.What do you think about it?

It sounds consistent with Plato’s approach. Be careful not to hurt yourself or damage your teeth with too much tension, especially if the retainer could slip off. A separate fixation point just means you’d have to keep your head in position throughout your session to avoid changing the vector or tension. I’ve always been skeptical that the kind of short sessions advocated by Plato anchored to the teeth could have much effect, and I never considered his before/after images to be remarkable. Even using reverse pull headgear attached to my bone-anchored MSE for 12+ hours per day for several months didn’t seem to achieve appreciable advancement. Plato emphasizes being in a parasympathetic state during his short sessions. So whatever you can do to remain calm and breathe slowly and diaphragmatically throughout your sessions might help. Good luck!

And should I go hard or soft?

 
Posted : 27/09/2022 12:46 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc
And should I go hard or soft?

You’re asking how much tension to use? I think this will be limited for you by the stability of the retainer you’re connecting to. You don’t want it slipping out and breaking a tooth. When I was attaching to my bone-anchored MSE, I used about as much tension as I could tolerate. I’ve seen Dr. Won Moon recommend 1kg on both sides for MSE+FM, but I think I was using more than that and would wake up with pain from the headgear against my forehead. If I remember Plato’s description of his method correctly, I think he eased into it by attaching the traction and then angling the helmet away from his face to increase the tension as the session progressed. Pulling too hard might be both risky and counterproductive by activating your sympathetic response and causing your muscles to brace against the traction rather than releasing and relaxing.

 

 
Posted : 27/09/2022 8:41 pm
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Posts: 10
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc
And should I go hard or soft?

You’re asking how much tension to use? I think this will be limited for you by the stability of the retainer you’re connecting to. You don’t want it slipping out and breaking a tooth. When I was attaching to my bone-anchored MSE, I used about as much tension as I could tolerate. I’ve seen Dr. Won Moon recommend 1kg on both sides for MSE+FM, but I think I was using more than that and would wake up with pain from the headgear against my forehead. If I remember Plato’s description of his method correctly, I think he eased into it by attaching the traction and then angling the helmet away from his face to increase the tension as the session progressed. Pulling too hard might be both risky and counterproductive by activating your sympathetic response and causing your muscles to brace against the traction rather than releasing and relaxing.

 

So as the session progresses I should be moving my head backwards gradually to create more tension? Also How do I know how much kg of tension/pressure i’m applying? Everytime I finish my sessions I feel a bit of pressure all around my nose and above my lips,is it because it’s working? 

Im planning in the future to combine this technique with NCR once I get all the materials,will I drastically see my maxilla comming forward thanks to it?

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 4:50 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc

So as the session progresses I should be moving my head backwards gradually to create more tension? Also How do I know how much kg of tension/pressure i’m applying? Everytime I finish my sessions I feel a bit of pressure all around my nose and above my lips,is it because it’s working? 

Im planning in the future to combine this technique with NCR once I get all the materials,will I drastically see my maxilla comming forward thanks to it?

Just ease back slightly as you get accustomed to the tension. I think Plato talked about this in one of the videos on his site that aren’t archived. The pressure sensation you described sounds promising. You don’t want your teeth to feel achy afterward. I never got dramatic results from performing endonasal balloon inflation on myself. I was able to consistently get the finger cot to inflate in my nasopharynx, but maybe my amateur technique wasn’t ideal or I was too stressed and tense while doing it to benefit. If it helps mobilize the sutures, it could supplement the facepulling. Be careful when experimenting not to suffocate on a piece of ruptured finger cot. Even Ian Hedley’s most impressive results from facepulling and ncr are relatively subtle and hard to definitively distinguish from changes in the photographic conditions.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 10:29 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 42: 26ml, 25sec, 25min

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 11:54 am
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Posts: 10
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc

So as the session progresses I should be moving my head backwards gradually to create more tension? Also How do I know how much kg of tension/pressure i’m applying? Everytime I finish my sessions I feel a bit of pressure all around my nose and above my lips,is it because it’s working? 

Im planning in the future to combine this technique with NCR once I get all the materials,will I drastically see my maxilla comming forward thanks to it?

Just ease back slightly as you get accustomed to the tension. I think Plato talked about this in one of the videos on his site that aren’t archived. The pressure sensation you described sounds promising. You don’t want your teeth to feel achy afterward. I never got dramatic results from performing endonasal balloon inflation on myself. I was able to consistently get the finger cot to inflate in my nasopharynx, but maybe my amateur technique wasn’t ideal or I was too stressed and tense while doing it to benefit. If it helps mobilize the sutures, it could supplement the facepulling. Be careful when experimenting not to suffocate on a piece of ruptured finger cot. Even Ian Hedley’s most impressive results from facepulling and ncr are relatively subtle and hard to definitively distinguish from changes in the photographic conditions.

Also, Plato never mentioned it but as the weeks go by, should I be increasing the time in the sessions or should they always be the same lenght (30 minutes), my intentions are to move my maxilla forwards and upwards as fast as possible so if you know about another method to pair with mine appart from NCR ,it would help me alot.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 12:37 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc

Also, Plato never mentioned it but as the weeks go by, should I be increasing the time in the sessions or should they always be the same lenght (30 minutes), my intentions are to move my maxilla forwards and upwards as fast as possible so if you know about another method to pair with mine appart from NCR ,it would help me alot.

While I was of the philosophy that maximizing my time would maximize my results, Plato doesn’t seem to subscribe to that idea. Longer sessions could become impractical, especially since you’re attaching to this separate anchorage, and can’t move around like you could with headgear. You might consider adding a second session per day. I really can’t say what would work best for you. Maybe try longer or multiple shorter sessions and see how it feels with the midface pressure sensation you mentioned. Karan’s breath training is another strategy that is supposed to help mobilize sutures which could facilitate facepulling. Getting your tongue posture correct and avoiding mouth breathing during sleep could help prevent relapse between sessions.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 4:48 pm
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Posts: 10
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc

Also, Plato never mentioned it but as the weeks go by, should I be increasing the time in the sessions or should they always be the same lenght (30 minutes), my intentions are to move my maxilla forwards and upwards as fast as possible so if you know about another method to pair with mine appart from NCR ,it would help me alot.

While I was of the philosophy that maximizing my time would maximize my results, Plato doesn’t seem to subscribe to that idea. Longer sessions could become impractical, especially since you’re attaching to this separate anchorage, and can’t move around like you could with headgear. You might consider adding a second session per day. I really can’t say what would work best for you. Maybe try longer or multiple shorter sessions and see how it feels with the midface pressure sensation you mentioned. Karan’s breath training is another strategy that is supposed to help mobilize sutures which could facilitate facepulling. Getting your tongue posture correct and avoiding mouth breathing during sleep could help prevent relapse between sessions.

How does Karan’s breathing technique works,is it like a routine?

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 5:17 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc

How does Karan’s breathing technique works,is it like a routine?

I’m not the best person to explain it. He has exercises to bring awareness to the role of different muscle groups in respiration so that eventually your normal breathing is supposed to constantly contribute to aligning the tensegrity of your body. I imagine facepulling is like adding an external tension into the tensegrity equation in the hope that your body might realign to the new balance. Check out the discord for more information: https://discord.com/invite/w7EUpPad3w

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 7:25 pm
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Posts: 10
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc

How does Karan’s breathing technique works,is it like a routine?

I’m not the best person to explain it. He has exercises to bring awareness to the role of different muscle groups in respiration so that eventually your normal breathing is supposed to constantly contribute to aligning the tensegrity of your body. I imagine facepulling is like adding an external tension into the tensegrity equation in the hope that your body might realign to the new balance. Check out the discord for more information: https://discord.com/invite/w7EUpPad3w

I was already in that server,there’s a section there called “lessons”, where he explains some techniques, those were the ones that you were referring to?

So if i’m nor wrong, they will restart my breathing and unlock my cranial sutures to move them in the right direction, thus moving my maxilla forward,right?.

 
Posted : 29/09/2022 12:25 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc

I was already in that server,there’s a section there called “lessons”, where he explains some techniques, those were the ones that you were referring to?

So if i’m nor wrong, they will restart my breathing and unlock my cranial sutures to move them in the right direction, thus moving my maxilla forward,right?.

That’s the idea. Karan’s strategy is evolving, but those lessons are a good starting point. Like facepulling, and ncr, there isn’t conclusive evidence supporting their efficacy, but it’s worth trying how it works for you to help develop your own body awareness. I haven’t achieved the pops and cracks some people describe when trying the exercises.

 
Posted : 29/09/2022 1:18 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 42: 26ml, 26sec, 15min x 2

 
Posted : 29/09/2022 1:20 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 43: 26ml, 26sec, 16min x 2

 
Posted : 30/09/2022 12:28 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 44: 26ml, 27sec, 16min x 2

 
Posted : 01/10/2022 12:45 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 45: 27ml, 27sec, 16min x 2

 
Posted : 02/10/2022 12:11 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 46: 27ml, 28sec, 16min x 2

 
Posted : 03/10/2022 12:31 pm
TGW reacted
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 47: 27ml, 28sec, 17min x 2

 
Posted : 04/10/2022 11:31 am
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Posts: 10
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc

I was already in that server,there’s a section there called “lessons”, where he explains some techniques, those were the ones that you were referring to?

So if i’m nor wrong, they will restart my breathing and unlock my cranial sutures to move them in the right direction, thus moving my maxilla forward,right?.

That’s the idea. Karan’s strategy is evolving, but those lessons are a good starting point. Like facepulling, and ncr, there isn’t conclusive evidence supporting their efficacy, but it’s worth trying how it works for you to help develop your own body awareness. I haven’t achieved the pops and cracks some people describe when trying the exercises.

Ive been reading though the lessons but I don’t seem to understand what exercises should I be doing nor what breathing routine should I follow,I’m confused 

 
Posted : 04/10/2022 6:11 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc

Ive been reading though the lessons but I don’t seem to understand what exercises should I be doing nor what breathing routine should I follow,I’m confused 

Like I said, I’m not the best person to explain the whole body breathing approach. The lessons should help bring awareness to activation of different muscle groups during respiration. Then it’s just a matter of practicing until it becomes more automatic and less of a discrete exercise. If the free lessons and videos seem to be helping you, then the paid course might give you more of a routine to follow. I haven’t implemented it enough to be able to recommend it yet. Karan is expanding and restructuring the training now.

 
Posted : 05/10/2022 12:24 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 48: 27ml, 29sec, 17min x 2

I’m going to stop increasing the total session time at 18min x 2 since that will exceed the recommended daily duration and I’ve seen resources warning against overtraining and depleting surfactant.

edit: I decided to experiment with placing the Frolov inside a larger container to capture more CO2 during my second session today. I used a 1.5 pint ball jar, which is not much bigger than the Frolov canister, but it was significantly more challenging and air hunger inducing while keeping the same water volume, PRA and session duration parameters. If I continue with the extra container going forward, I might wind back the PRA a few seconds.

 
Posted : 05/10/2022 12:29 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 49: 27ml, 20sec, 17min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

To make the increase in air hunger more gradual, I’ve decided to dial back my PRA to 20 sec while adding respiratory dead space. This takes me from just over 2 breaths up to 3 breaths per minute. Depending how this feels, I might adjust the PRA further.

edit: that felt pretty easy, so I’ll bump up the PRA to 22sec for today’s second session.

 
Posted : 06/10/2022 11:35 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 50: 27ml, 22sec, 17min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 07/10/2022 12:05 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 51: 27ml, 23sec, 17min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 08/10/2022 12:04 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 52: 27ml, 24sec, 17min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

Considering adding some maximum breath holds in the middle of the day.

 
Posted : 09/10/2022 2:15 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 53: 27ml, 25sec, 17min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 10/10/2022 1:10 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 54: 27ml, 26sec, 17min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 11/10/2022 12:15 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 55: 27ml, 27sec, 17min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
 
Posted : 12/10/2022 12:57 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 56: 28ml, 27sec, 35min, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 13/10/2022 12:41 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 57: 28ml, 28sec, 35min, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 14/10/2022 12:24 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 58: 28ml, 28sec, 18min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 15/10/2022 12:44 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 59: 28ml, 29sec, 35min, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 16/10/2022 4:08 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 60: 29ml, 29sec, 18min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 17/10/2022 12:11 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 61: 29ml, 30sec, 35min, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 18/10/2022 8:09 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 62: 29ml, 30sec, 19min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
 
Posted : 19/10/2022 1:44 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 63: 30ml, 30sec, 19min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 20/10/2022 1:04 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 64: 30ml, 30sec, 20min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 21/10/2022 2:27 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 65: 30ml, 30sec, 20min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 22/10/2022 11:40 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 66: 30ml, 31sec, 20min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 23/10/2022 12:29 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 67: 30ml, 31sec, 20min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 24/10/2022 2:07 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 68: 30ml, 32sec, 20min x 2, 0.7 liter outer container

 
Posted : 25/10/2022 3:30 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 69: 30ml, 30sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 26/10/2022 12:03 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 70: 30ml, 30sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 27/10/2022 12:20 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 71: 30ml, 31sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 1:00 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 72: 30ml, 31sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 29/10/2022 12:58 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 73: 30ml, 31sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 30/10/2022 11:37 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 74: 30ml, 31sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

Still feeling air hunger at this level, so keeping the same parameters for now.

 
Posted : 31/10/2022 12:24 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 75: 30ml, 31sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 01/11/2022 12:50 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 76: 30ml, 32sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 02/11/2022 12:23 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 77: 30ml, 32sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 03/11/2022 12:11 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 78: 30ml, 33sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

I’m wondering if minor physical activity could be another parameter to increase intensity as Frolov training advances. For example, increasing steps per minute, or increasing reps of lifting a weight per minute while breathing through the Frolov. The instructions say to be seated and stationary, but I’ve noticed just standing up to retrieve something increases air hunger and makes it harder to maintain PRA. I assume this reflects increased oxygen consumption and CO2 output. For now, I’m going to focus on increasing my PRA and outer container volume, but I might try adding some kind of physical work to the equation in the future.

 
Posted : 04/11/2022 12:59 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 79: 30ml, 33sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 05/11/2022 1:01 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 80: 30ml, 33sec, 20min, 1L outer container

Missed second session

 
Posted : 06/11/2022 12:51 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 81: 30ml, 33sec, 20min, 1L outer container

Since the time change, its been challenging to fit in a second session between dinner and sleep.

 
Posted : 07/11/2022 11:26 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 82: 30ml, 34sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 08/11/2022 12:49 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 83: 30ml, 34sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 09/11/2022 12:01 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
Topic starter
 

Day 84: 30ml, 35sec, 20min x 2, 1L outer container

 
Posted : 10/11/2022 1:03 pm
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THE GREAT WORK