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DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

Apollo’s Accountability Record

138 Posts
12 Users
38 Likes
3,814 Views
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I want to improve my diaphragmatic breathing. Stomach vacuums work the transverse abdominis muscle, but I thought they might also help me consciously control my diaphragm, so I’ve tried them for the past few days. I noticed that sometimes my instinct is to inhale while I’m sucking in my stomach rather than exhale. Filling the lungs holds out the ribs and makes the stomach look more sucked in, but I think this reflects my breathing dysfunction. This “reverse breathing” (sucking in the belly on inhale) uses the chest muscles rather than the diaphragm, and I probably do this at least part of the time during normal breathing, maybe to make my belly look flatter. The “Normal Breathing” Buteyko website has a few exercises to improve diaphragmatic breathing including lying down with books stacked on the abdomen and focusing on lifting them on inhalation and lowering them on exhalation, but I feel like this is engaging the abs more than the diaphragm. They also suggest putting a belt or two around the rib cage to prevent the chest from expanding and force the diaphragm to extend into the abdomen. Maybe I’ll give that a try if I can find a good belt. I’d like to resume use of my Frolov device, which adds resistance, but it would be good to master my diaphragmatic breathing first.

 
Posted : 03/06/2020 10:30 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

One of the factors that has kept me from resuming my Frolov exercises is that I forgot what amount of water resistance to use, the duration of a session, the time for each inspiration and expiration, and when to adjust these variables. I finally went back and skimmed the manual. It recommends that healthy adults under age 60 start with 18-20ml of water, for 8-10 minutes, with an 8-12 second “period of respiratory act” (inhalation + exhalation) for the first week of daily exercise. Starting at the second week, to increase the intensity, the amount of water, duration of exercise, and length of exhalation is increased. The length of inhalation always remains about 2-3 seconds. The manual recommends gradually increasing the water volume by 1 ml every 3-4 days, length of session by 1 minute every 2-3 days, and PRA by 1 second every 2-3 days as tolerated up to 25-30 ml of water for 25-30 minutes with a PRA of 30-40 seconds or more. After 4-6 months of daily treatment, they say you can switch to a preventative course 2-3 times per week. Since the nasal hose I use has more dead space than the oral hose that comes with the device, last time I started at 18 ml, 8 minutes, and 10 seconds. My next session was 19 ml, 9 minutes, and 10 seconds, then 19 ml, 9-1/2 minutes, and 10 seconds, then 3 sessions at 20 ml, 10 minutes, and 10 seconds. After the first week, I advanced to 2 sessions at 11min, 21ml, 11sec. Then I had to stop the practice to make time for physical therapy after I injured my back. It’s been a couple years and I’d like to try again. Another impediment is the annoyance of cleaning the system after each use. There’s a book I might order with more detailed instructions than the user manual. Maybe I should read it before trying to add this practice to my routine.

 

 
Posted : 09/06/2020 9:58 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I’ve had a baseline CBCT taken. It’s interesting to look at, but didn’t reveal much that I didn’t already know. As expected, my maxilla is obviously tilted down and back on the right side and my IMW is around 36mm. It does reveal my nasal septum deviates to the left constricting the airway on that side. This makes sense since the bridge of my nose deviates to the left, but my right nostril is smaller. Is there anything else on the CBCT I should measure or look for?

 
Posted : 15/06/2020 1:37 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I still haven’t been able to enter khechari mudra stage 2 without finger assistance or to hold it for more than a few minutes at a time without drooling or bringing my tongue back down to swallow. I have to admit that I haven’t been as consistent with my exercises recently. I did notice that chin tucking while in khechari puts the dorsum of my tongue in contact with the back wall of my nasopharynx and blocks nasal breathing. While I still can’t reach the ceiling of my nasopharynx, I wonder if chin tucking and pressing against the vertebrae, occipital bone, and sphenoid bone might help decompress my midface like an endonasal balloon inflation with my tongue. I don’t really hear shifting sounds when I do that like I do if I press forward with the tip of my tongue against the posterior nasal spine of the palatine bone or the pterygoid processes of the sphenoid bone on either side. Interestingly, if I try to press back with the dorsum of my tongue and forward with the tip of my tongue at the same time, I get a shooting warmth behind my nose, similar to a stifled sneeze. Maybe this reflects the kind of adjustment I’m hoping for. 

 
Posted : 23/06/2020 1:54 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I noticed this MARPE case on youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OkTLKWPvC8 ). The video doesn’t mention the age of the patient, but he looks pretty young. Maybe late teens or early twenties? What I found intriguing is that he seems to have a slight torus palatinus in the before image which seems to be reduced in the after image. I’m curious how bone remodeling changes the contour of the torus during MARPE. Could some of that excess bone go to fill in the gap created by the suture separation? Maybe widening the palate just alleviates some of the forces that caused the torus in the first place.

 
Posted : 25/06/2020 3:05 am
Agendum and Agendum reacted
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I performed self endonasal balloon inflation today for the first time since achieving Khechari Mudra. Because my tongue still can’t reach up into the ceiling of my nasopharynx, I wondered how the finger cot balloon expanding into that space would feel. I was definitely able to keep the balloon inflated longer without gagging than I could during previous sessions now that I’m accustomed to holding my tongue up there. I don’t know that I felt any remarkable adjustment happening, but my nose felt less stuffy afterward. I treated both sides a few times and put my tongue up and pressed forward and back with it between each inflation. It’s kind of a messy, hassle of a process, so I haven’t decided if I want to try it again soon, or just continue with Khechari Mudra instead.

 
Posted : 28/06/2020 2:11 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I don’t experience overt pain in my TMJ, but I’m certain it is relatively compressed. If I put my little fingers in my ear canals and open and close my jaw with my current occlusion, I can feel the condyle moving. This feeling goes away when I get my mandible out beyond an end-on-end bite. If I hold something like a tongue depressor with my front teeth, the mandible automatically wants to protrude out a few millimeters beyond my upper incisors. At my age, I don’t know if protraction in conjunction with bone anchored expansion could achieve the kind of sagittal displacement of the maxilla I would need to position my mandible as far forward as it wants to go, but I guess it is worth trying. It looks like I would need to bring the maxilla about 6 or 7mm forward to have a normal overbite with my mandible in a comfortable position. I suppose even just a couple millimeters would help. I mentioned in another thread that I plan to use traction angled down and forward relative to the occlusal plane. I’m hoping this will optimize the amount of forward separation I can achieve, but I also wonder if pulling the posterior maxilla down will vertically decompress the TMJ, and better support the skull with the cervical spine elongated, and the axis of mandibular rotation around the dens of the C2 vertebra better aligned. In theory, this all should reduce substance P production, inflammation, and sympathetic tone. The benefits I’ve experienced from a low-carb/high-fat diet supports the idea that this inflammatory state is part of the etiology. I’ve decided that facial compression and massage might also be beneficial to reduce substance P production resulting from cranio-facial nerve entrapment. I’ve definitely experienced this from the myofascial release I’ve been experimenting with ( https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/apollos-accountability-record/#post-31790 ), especially from compressing the occipitalis and corrugator supercilii. It is painful, and if I’m not careful can generalize into headache symptoms. I believe it is probably even acutely triggering substance P production, but over the long-term it should help relieve the chronic bracing and reduce inflammation. If I extend this process to face muscles like the masseters and temporalis, it might help offset the trigeminal nerve irritation resulting from TMJ compression. Like everything, it’s just a matter of finding the time to make this a priority. I also need to get a few more massage tools to really do this effectively.

 
Posted : 04/07/2020 11:07 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @apollo

Another step I’m taking to prepare for expansion treatment is gathering any supplies I might need beyond what the orthodontist would provide. I expect to use a conventional facemask from the orthodontist for extra-oral traction, but especially during sleep I might want something that doesn’t push back on the mandible. Ronald Ead’s recent video talks about using the crane system. However, when I experimented with DIY headgear in the past, I found using a neck brace to be unstable. There was too much play between my head and the fixation point. I’d also like the option to add posterior elastics like the MewVector system to allow for 3D fine-tuning of my maxilla’s pitch, roll, and yaw and reduce asymmetries. I have some design ideas that should be more comfortable and effective than my previous attempts. I need to purchase some of the materials from retail stores, which haven’t yet reopened in my area. I’ve been searching online, but it is hard to tell if certain pieces will work without seeing and measuring them in person.

I’ve made some progress assembling my overnight headgear. I haven’t figured out a way to add the MewVector-style posterior attachments, but since I’ve decided to angle my traction downward, maybe I don’t want those upward elastics in the back anyway. I could always try to add them later if I decide to use them. Maybe I will take this thing for a test drive tonight. Obviously, I don’t have the hooks in my mouth to attach the elastics to my maxilla yet. I’m considering using an old lower retainer to connect elastics that would hold my mandible forward while I sleep like an extra-oral mandibular advancement device (avoiding the reciprocal force on the maxilla), similar to this system:

Unfortunately, my old lower retainer doesn’t quite fit right in the front where one of my lower central incisors is crowded behind the other. Maybe I will file back the acrylic behind the front teeth and see if it seats comfortably.

 
Posted : 06/07/2020 2:17 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I didn’t get my lower retainer adjusted in time to try sleeping with it attached to extra-oral traction last night, but I just finished it and I’m wearing it now. It seems secure and comfortable enough to sleep in. I think the elastics are a little too tight. I’m going to try attaching a couple small paperclips to reduce the tension at the point of attachment. I think the proper way to do it is like the image above where they don’t use elastics, but a wire that prevents the mandible from retracting but allows it to protrude. Maybe I can rig up something similar. I’ll be sure to use an occlusal repositioner for several minutes after waking and removing the appliance to help prevent bite changes. I doubt that I will use this system regularly, but I’d like to try it to be sure the headgear will work when the time comes to use it for maxillary traction.

 
Posted : 07/07/2020 12:40 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I’ve had my MSE consultation and ordered the appliance. It will have the hooks to attach face mask protraction, but my orthodontist is skeptical that will help much at my age. Maybe my Khechari Mudra practice will help get some forward decompression. I’m excited to get this process moving, but I’m worried by the lack of consensus about variables like the expansion protocol, protraction angle, corticopuncture methodology, etc. I guess I’ll figure it out as I go along.

 
Posted : 17/07/2020 2:01 am
Agendum
(@agendum)
Trusted Member
 

@apollo Where do the hooks attach on the MSE? I got a standard MSE II appliance but havnt asked my ortho about it yet since Im not at that stage yet.

 
Posted : 17/07/2020 7:34 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @agendum

@apollo Where do the hooks attach on the MSE? I got a standard MSE II appliance but havnt asked my ortho about it yet since Im not at that stage yet.

The hooks connect to buccal tubes on the molar bands. I think the appliance has to be ordered like that from the lab from the beginning to have them soldered in place. Varbrah and Ronald Ead talked about ways to add extra oral traction by connecting elastics to the molar bands or the arms or the body of the MSE without the hooks, but that could be tricky.

 

 
Posted : 17/07/2020 7:43 am
Agendum and Agendum reacted
Agendum
(@agendum)
Trusted Member
 

@apollo Oh ok, I got my ortho to agree to do protraction but my 1st MSE (the failed one thats still in until next installation) didnt have those hooks soldered on. Thanks for the info.

 
Posted : 17/07/2020 8:13 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

I’ve decided to resume Frolov practice and revive this old thread to track my progress. I started with 18 ml, and 10 seconds, for 8 minutes today. I kept my tongue up in khechari the whole time. Tomorrow, I’ll advance to 19 ml, 10 seconds, and 9 minutes. The instructions say to do this on an empty stomach, so I had been struggling to fit it in after dinner and before bed. Even though it has a kind of soporific effect, I’m going to try switching to mornings before eating anything.

 
Posted : 15/08/2022 11:29 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Today’s Frolov session: 19ml, 10sec, 9min

 
Posted : 17/08/2022 3:32 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 3: 19 ml, 10sec, 9.5 min

 
Posted : 17/08/2022 11:34 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 4: 20ml, 10sec, 10min

 
Posted : 18/08/2022 10:06 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 5: 20ml, 10sec, 10min

 
Posted : 19/08/2022 8:50 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 6: 21ml, 11sec, 11min

+1ml in 3-4 days

+1sec in 2-3 days

+1min in 2-3 days

(up to 25-30ml, 30-40sec+, 25-30min)

 
Posted : 20/08/2022 10:24 pm
Help
 Help
(@sheeesh)
Eminent Member
 

What is does Frolov practice work? How does it help?

 

 
Posted : 21/08/2022 10:24 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @sheeesh

What is does Frolov practice work? How does it help?

It’s a device for breathing sessions through increased dead space and water resistance with protracted exhalation. This is supposed to help adapt the body to higher CO2 levels, faster and easier than Buteyko exercises. I haven’t ever been consistent enough with it to notice benefits.

 
Posted : 21/08/2022 9:59 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 7: 21ml, 11sec, 11min

 
Posted : 21/08/2022 10:03 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 8: 21ml, 12sec, 11min

 
Posted : 22/08/2022 9:09 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 9: 21ml, 12sec, 12min

 
Posted : 23/08/2022 9:42 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 10: 22ml, 12sec, 12min

 
Posted : 24/08/2022 9:47 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 11: 22ml, 13sec, 12min

 
Posted : 25/08/2022 8:16 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 12: 22ml, 13sec, 13min

 
Posted : 26/08/2022 8:19 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 13: 23ml, 13sec, 13min

 
Posted : 27/08/2022 8:50 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 14: 23ml, 14sec, 13min

 
Posted : 28/08/2022 10:06 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 15: 23ml, 14sec, 14min

 
Posted : 29/08/2022 8:24 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 16: 24ml, 14sec, 14min

 
Posted : 30/08/2022 10:01 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 17: 24ml, 15sec, 14min

 
Posted : 31/08/2022 9:01 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 18: 24ml, 15sec, 15min

 
Posted : 01/09/2022 9:36 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 19: 25ml, 15sec, 15min

The Frolov manual lists 25ml as the lower limit of the target range for water resistance, up to 30ml. Another Frolov resource says as much as 40ml of water can eventually be used before it starts splashing out. I might slow progression on the water volume to give the other parameters a chance to catch up to their target ranges. The manual lists 30-40 seconds and 25-30 minutes as the goal, but the other resource says 50-60 seconds and 30-35 minutes. It also suggests that the total duration can be broken up into two or more sessions throughout the day. If the exhalation period is supposed to equate to about 1/5 to 1/4 of the Control Pause, and Buteyko lists the CP for superior health as 1.33 to 3 minutes, then we want to get the exhalation up to 20 – 45 seconds (or 22 – 47 seconds PRA, including the rapid inspiration).

 
Posted : 02/09/2022 8:56 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 20: 25ml, 16sec, 15min

 
Posted : 03/09/2022 9:01 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 21: 25ml, 16sec, 16min

 
Posted : 04/09/2022 8:44 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 22: 25ml, 17sec, 16min

 
Posted : 05/09/2022 8:28 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 23: 25ml, 17sec, 17min

 
Posted : 06/09/2022 7:46 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 24: 25ml, 18sec, 17min

 
Posted : 08/09/2022 7:38 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 25: 25ml, 18sec, 18min

 
Posted : 09/09/2022 6:18 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 26: 25ml, 19sec, 18min

 
Posted : 10/09/2022 7:08 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Missed a day. Winding back PRA 1 sec.
Day 27: 25ml, 18sec, 18min

 
Posted : 12/09/2022 8:03 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Missed 2 more days due to medical procedure. Going to try splitting total daily time into 2 sessions.

Day 28: 25ml, 18sec, 10min x 2

 
Posted : 14/09/2022 7:57 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 29: 25ml, 19sec, 18min

 
 
Posted : 16/09/2022 5:57 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 30: 25ml, 19sec, 11min x 2

 
Posted : 16/09/2022 7:25 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 31: 25ml, 20sec, 20min

 
Posted : 17/09/2022 7:49 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 32: 25ml, 20sec, 21min

 
Posted : 18/09/2022 9:15 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 33: 25ml, 21sec, 21min

 
Posted : 19/09/2022 8:52 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 34: 25ml, 21sec, 22min

 
 
Posted : 20/09/2022 9:30 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 35: 25ml, 22sec, 12min x 2

 
Posted : 21/09/2022 8:33 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 36: 25ml, 22sec, 13min x 2

 
Posted : 22/09/2022 9:21 pm
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Active Member
 

Hello Apollo, I just wanna know where can I contact Plato,since i`ve found another method to perform facepulling and I wanna ask him or someone that knows about it,so they can give me feedback wether it would work or not.

 
Posted : 22/09/2022 11:26 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc

Hello Apollo, I just wanna know where can I contact Plato,since i`ve found another method to perform facepulling and I wanna ask him or someone that knows about it,so they can give me feedback wether it would work or not.

I don’t have any connection to Plato, but the email contact on his website is contact@ncrnyc.com

 
Posted : 22/09/2022 11:37 pm
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Active Member
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc

Hello Apollo, I just wanna know where can I contact Plato,since i`ve found another method to perform facepulling and I wanna ask him or someone that knows about it,so they can give me feedback wether it would work or not.

I don’t have any connection to Plato, but the email contact on his website is contact@ncrnyc.com

Whats his website?

 
Posted : 23/09/2022 1:00 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc
Whats his website?
His old website where I first learned about his facepulling technique at http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ is no longer active. However his NCR website is still up at https://ncrnyc.com/ and lists contact details. 
 
Posted : 23/09/2022 9:32 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 37: 25ml, 23sec, 23min

 
Posted : 23/09/2022 9:36 pm
LMC
 LMC
(@lmc)
Active Member
 
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @lmc
Whats his website?
His old website where I first learned about his facepulling technique at http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ is no longer active. However his NCR website is still up at https://ncrnyc.com/ and lists contact details. 

I’ve emailed him but he doesn’t answer, would you mind if I share with you my facepulling method so you could tell me if it will work or not.

 
Posted : 24/09/2022 12:07 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @lmc

I’ve emailed him but he doesn’t answer, would you mind if I share with you my facepulling method so you could tell me if it will work or not.

I’m happy to discuss your idea, but I couldn’t tell you if it will work or not. None of the facepulling strategies I’ve tried have been dramatically successful.

 
Posted : 24/09/2022 12:52 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 38: 25ml, 23sec, 24min

 
Posted : 24/09/2022 9:05 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Noble Member
Topic starter
 

Day 39: 25ml, 24sec, 24min

 
Posted : 25/09/2022 8:43 pm
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THE GREAT WORK